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Man tasered 19 times, dies.

Discussion in 'Legal' started by ziadel, Oct 14, 2005.

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  1. ziadel

    ziadel Member

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  2. mbs357

    mbs357 Member

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    The problem with tasers is people think "It's non-lethal!" and go nuts with them.
    Usage of handguns forces people to use restraint.
     
  3. Shipwreck

    Shipwreck Member

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  4. VARifleman

    VARifleman Member

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    With a voltage of 50k to 900k, what the hell did they think was going to happen? Of course, the drugs certainly didn't help him there. He may have lived if he hadn't been baked.
     
  5. solareclipse

    solareclipse Member

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    I would rather be shot than tasered. At least if they shoot you, chances are there is no other option.
     
  6. pcf

    pcf Member

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    Grumble grumble grumble

    Should go back to the good old days when he would have been beat to death with a baton or strangled with a choke hold, because it's the means that matter, not the results. Right?
     
  7. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    From the linked article:
    If you're gonna do illicit chemicals, don't do so much of 'em that you have no clue whats going on about you.
     
  8. Joejojoba111

    Joejojoba111 Member

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    ""The combined effects of multiple applications of the Taser, pepper spray and physical force on someone in excited delirium are unclear and require additional research."

    There you go, after a moderate sample of 2000 or so dead suburban kids you will have completed testing, and there will be evidence to support what the effects are.

    Anyone want to guess that death might be one effect?


    And pcf, might point out that some of us consider lethal force to be much over-used, and someone resisting a beating is not really resisting arrest, though the 2 terms are legally interchangeable.
     
  9. meef

    meef Member

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    If they taser you 19 times - you ain't paying close enough attention...
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2005
  10. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Member

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    This was posted on that Glock site.
    The guy died Two Days later. In this case, I doubt the tazer was the primary cause of death.
     
  11. walking arsenal

    walking arsenal Member

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    I'm going into law enforcement, maybe, it's stuff like this that makes me want to finish school and then run for cover.

    If it isn't department mandatory i wont carry mace or a tazer, why should i?

    If i cant talk my way out of everyone going nuts, then the next step is to start making my springer bark.

    short and sweet, there is a point, like with us ccw guys that goes from "i dont need squat" to " i need my gun now, please, thank you, BANG!"

    Tazers and mace just encourage the lack of common sense and self restraint in officers. Plus we got guys now that just like to hurt people and be the big man. "you arent going to do what i say" TAZERFRRRRRRYYYYYY "how bout now"? "no"? TAZERFRYYYYYYYYYY.

    Sad, real sad, Andy Griffith didn't even carry a gun, tv show, granted, but.............
     
  12. Joejojoba111

    Joejojoba111 Member

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    WA I have to disagree on technical, but important terms.

    It is irresponsible to blame tools for their mis-use. Can't blame guns, can't blame knives, can't blame mace or tazers.

    It is obviously logical to blame a tool for the effects of it's use, though.

    So if you say, "Tazers encourage police to abuse people." I disagree. If you say, "Tazers seem to have a pattern of death resulting soon after their use in large quantities." I have to agree.

    My guess is taht one big thing is TV is to blame for growing police abuses. TV shows hire police officers to make sure they are 'realistic', and to be really 'realistic' they go a little over-board instituting not only the technical merits espoused, but the philosophical ones. And the public sees this, and accepts it as dogma. So Law and Order doesn't just try to illustrate how to put on handcuffs more realistically, but they convey that it's OK to request DNA samples from entire neighbourhoods and label those that refuse as 'prime suspects', and then go harass the sleazeballs who refuse to give samples because 'if they have nothing to hide they would give the sample'.

    [end rant]

    You might have guessed that fascist crap like that has turned me off pretty much every police show, except Monk, but they cancelled it :(


    So anyway, yea through increased influence in all areas of society and power police have managed to rapidly expand their boundaries of behavior. What used to be done covertly is being integrated into the collective conscious as 'standard procedure'.

    I still love the word 'compliance strikes'. Lol older brothers around the world shoulda learn that one, "But mom I was just giving jimmy a couple compliance strikes until he handed over the remote control." "Oh, well Billy when you put it like that it sounds so clinical, that I have to think it's acceptable behaviour."
     
  13. Taurus 66

    Taurus 66 Member

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    What baking? It's not the voltage that kills, it's the current. What do you suppose is the ampere rating on a stun gun? 0.01? 1? 10? High voltage could quite possibly interfere with a pace maker. Did he have one?

    This says "only" that he died after the tasing, not that he died because of it.

    There's the real culprit! Illegal substance abuse may have led to his death.
     
  14. Powderman

    Powderman Member

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    Friend, if you are going into law enforcement, I will guarantee you that the first time you try to arrest someone who does not want to be arrested, or the first time you have to go hands on with someone by yourself, you will want that Taser.

    It has been proven many, many times--the Taser is NOT lethal.

    On the use of force continuum, you start with verbal judo. Then, hands-on compliance (escort holds). Now, the person decides to get squirrely on you.

    You can use OC. OK, so the person might submit. Then again, they might not. In the Academy, you are taught to fight through OC; this is so if someone gets your OC and uses it on you, you can protect yourself.

    Use a baton? That's a can of worms. Use the baton properly, and you can permanently handicap someone. And, there are those people who can take a lickin', and keep on tickin'.

    The Taser puts them down IMMEDIATELY. And, once it shuts off there are no after effects. The amount of times you get zapped depends solely on you--if you don't want to get zapped, then comply with the officer's instructions.

    All officers who are issued Tasers are trained in their use. It is also highly encouraged that the officer take a zap from the Taser to understand how it works, and to build faith in the tool itself.

    I have been OC'd three times. Each time, it took more than two hours for the effects to calm down to bearable.

    I also took the ride from a Taser; three seconds worth of pure hell. But, once the current shut off, I got up, dusted myself off, and was a believer.

    Nope. Tasers and OC have one purpose--that is to make sure you get home alive and hopefully unhurt at the end of your shift. If you go into LE, you will learn this.
     
  15. Joejojoba111

    Joejojoba111 Member

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    Powderman

    "It has been proven many, many times--the Taser is NOT lethal."


    Not nearly as many times as it has been proven that smoking does not cause cancer. And smoking effecting heart-disease? Lol pull the other one! I'm supposed to believe that I smoke one decade, and then the next decade I have a heart attack, and it's the smoking's fault?

    What, am I supposed to believe in cause and effect or something? Riiiiight:rolleyes: Effects having causes, lol pull the other one.


    "Nope. Tasers and OC have one purpose--that is to make sure you get home alive and hopefully unhurt at the end of your shift. If you go into LE, you will learn this."

    We get it, we get it. Such a health-conscious bunch, wonder why so many are overweight, or use steroids, or drink or smoke? And none would ever drive without a seat-belt. What's that, you say vehicles and traffic cause more injuries and deaths than anything else? Well let's just ignore that, because it makes our 'concerns for our safety' look slightly hollow.


    And I have one more point - if you put such a high priority on being alive and unhurt, you might possibly consider that other people do too.

    I'm just suggesting it - don't bite my head off, but maybe officers are not the only people who like to be alive and unhurt.

    And when other people threaten to hurt you if you don't do what they ask they usually end up... Well never mind.
     
  16. Powderman

    Powderman Member

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    Well, I gotta answer this one. ;)

    What it boils down to is one very simple fact: We, as human beings, are responsible for our actions. We, as a society, have laws that we all are charged to follow and to obey.

    Are they all right, just laws? No. We do not live in a perfect world, and probably never will. We do have (at least here, thank heaven) the means and methods to change these laws peacefully and effectively. Whether we do so or not is best reserved for another thread.

    However, we also have police officers for a reason--and that reason is that some people choose to break the laws that we, as a society, have enacted to keep us safe and well. When those laws are broken--in some cases--police officers are tasked with taking these people who break the laws into custody to answer for their actions.

    If I, as a trained, prudent and observant law enforcement officer have developed probable cause that says that a person has broken the law--and the law deems that transgression to be an arrestible offense--that lawbreaker will be placed under arrest. Is this a hard and fast rule? Of course not. There have been plenty of times when I have use officer's discretion and simply talked to a person, confiscated their contraband, made sure they went home, etc.

    But when I have probable cause, and when I inform a person that they are under arrest, make no mistake: They WILL come with me. Their choice in the matter is now gone; they WILL be delivered to a detention facility, or cited, whatever is most appropriate for the situation as dictated by law.

    The arrestee now has two choices, and two choices only:

    To submit peacefully to lawful arrest, or
    To resist that lawful arrest.

    If they choose to resist, I will use the minimum force necessary to ensure that a lawful arrest is completed.

    And if they decide to make it personal--to fight ME--then I will fight back, and I will use the tool necessary to apply the minimum force necessary to get them to submit to lawful arrest.

    If that tool is OC, they'll get juiced.
    If it is a Taser, then they get the current. And, it just gets worse (for them) from there.

    Bottom line--if someone who is being arrested does NOT want to get hurt, then obey the officer. Don't resist, and definitely don't fight.

    If this is not acceptable to some folks, sorry. That's the way the game is played.
     
  17. VARifleman

    VARifleman Member

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    Baked, stoned, high as a kite, etc.

    As for the amperage, you can figure that out with the distance between pronges, and the resistance that body will give. I'll see if I can figure it out later tonight.
     
  18. brerrabbit

    brerrabbit Member

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    Wow, High on both maijuana and lsd, which caused his death. Not getting tasered nineteen times. Based on how much some of the LEO's on the board are defending the tasers, I would just agree with them that they are non lethal, and instead of getting tasered once as part of the cert to carry a taser, the requirements need to be upgraded to tasering the officer's children nineteen times at the same time,slightly staggered, for the maximum length of time the taser will light them up, while getting maced before hand.

    But hey, If we lose a few children, They must have been on drugs, Right?
    If you think this is inappropriate, don't you think tasering a guy nineteen times is?

    Tasers do kill people. The company that makes them is almost constantly in lawsuits over deaths from tasers, along with many of the police forces. The problem with the tasers is that because they are less likely to kill, officers use them with little if any restraint, in situations that don't call for their use.
     
  19. walking arsenal

    walking arsenal Member

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    "Tazers seem to have a pattern of death resulting soon after their use in large quantities."
    Yeah, i'll go with that.

    Still, i if i can avoid it, i'll leave the techno tazer back at the office. less junk to bang around on the bat belt.
     
  20. tulsamal

    tulsamal Member

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    The proof is that they get sued a lot? Man, how does that _prove_ anything?

    The truth is that there has never even been ONE case where a coroner has ruled that the primary cause of death was a Taser. Not one.

    If I was facing some crazed and psycho cop who wanted to kill me, I would rather he had a Taser in his hand than a .45!

    Gregg
     
  21. LAR-15

    LAR-15 Member

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    I'm just waiting for Congress to ban the non govt use of Tasers. :rolleyes:

    Has anyone ever heard of a civilian- IE non LEO or govt agent- killing somebody with a taser?
     
  22. brerrabbit

    brerrabbit Member

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    Tulsamal

    http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/text/2004/oct/08/517636982.html

    http://www.miami.com/mld/mcherald/12301281.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp



    http://www.bradenton.com/mld/charlotte/news/12729338.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp


    http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/tasers_death_ruled_homicide.htm

    Actually quite a few cases where coroners have ruled tasers primary cause of death. Most of the cases that you see like the guy getting tasered nineteen times and the coroner blaming it on pot, are pretty obviously cases where the coroner is covering for the cops. If its so harmless, why dont we taser cops nineteen times at once as part of their taser cert. Coroner would probably say that any deaths that resulted would have been for other reasons.

    If you taser a guy with a heart condition and he dies, odds are he would still be up and walking if he hadnt been tasered.
     
  23. Lupinus

    Lupinus Member

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    Im not sure of taser's lethality. But I can see how under the right circumstanses and flipping the light switch 19 times might provide closer to the right circumstance's then one jolt.

    For those that have been tased....is it anything like plugging yourself into a 240 outlet? That was a shocking experience if I ever had one :evil:

    But, I do think less then lethal alternative's to the gun tend to be over used. Just because I wont submit to the big bad officer's questioning or he doesn't like my "attitude" doesn't give him the right to taser or pepper spray me. For those that pretty much asked for it, spray and tase away by all mean's. But I do think that a cop who is jumpy is more likly to use less then lethal alternative's in situation's they don't have to.

    Oh, and just for some light reading and an example of tasing a guy that didn't have to be...and plus it's just a fun story IMO

    http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/4242058/detail.html
     
  24. El Rojo

    El Rojo Member

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    Well said Powderman. If you don't resist, it is awfully hard for a cop to justify beating you. Some how in my 28 years I have manged to avoid any negative incidents with law enforcement. Does that mean I am a gutless sheeple who just subjects myself to the tyranny of oppression? Or does that mean I just act rationally around law enforcement? :scrutiny:
     
  25. Baba Louie

    Baba Louie Member

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    Something or someone caused his interaction w/ LEO. Like his decision to get high and go out, I highly doubt it was happenstance.

    Weed and Acid huh? Out clubbing?

    One toke over the line sweet jesus...(showing my age with that lyric)

    A man's got to know his limitations.

    You can blame the Cops, you can blame his pharmacopoeia supplier, and/or you can lay the blame on the youngster who decided to "experiment" and leave the house that evening.

    He chose poorly.

    Pretty sad really. He was about my kids age.
     
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