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Man who disarmed criminal shot by responding police

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by Jeff White, Feb 26, 2018.

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  1. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ot-hero-disarmed-possible-church-shooter.html

    A perfect example of why you should immediately comply with an officer's instructions. Last summer an off duty St Louis officer when he decided to intervene in an incident was shot by responding officers.

    No amount of training is going to give the officers ESP so they can tell who the good guy is when they arrive on the scene. I really don't know why so many people have such a hard time understanding this.

    If you are involved in an armed confrontation it's best not to be visibly armed when the officers arrive and if you are, expect to be ordered to disarm and perhaps even cuffed until things are sorted out. Responding officers most often don't know what they are dealing with until they arrive and see for themselves.
     
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  2. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    https://www.carbonated.tv/news/texas-police-shoots-man-disarm-church-shooter-after-florida-massacre

    Well, you'd think that someone who did 4 years in prison might've learned that when police arrive and order you to drop a gun, it's really important to listen to them.

    Also, do you suppose Mr Garces was holding the gun in his hand by the grip, with his finger near the trigger guard (or even in it?), making it appear he would be able to fire it, or, was he holding it in some other manner that might've clearly indicated he wasn't able (or possibly intending) to fire it? Maybe not holding it in a manner clearly giving the impression he had no plans to fire it, and was ready to immediately surrender it to arriving police?

    It's been a recognized danger for off-duty and UC/plainclothes cops for many years, and no shortage of cops have been shot by other responding cops who mistook the "man with a gun", who didn't listen to them when told to put down the gun, as an armed suspect.

    I think it was sometime in 2000 when I was attending an out-of-county training class for a few days at another agency's training center, where the class was a safety/tactics & shooting class (lots of live-fire and a day of Sims), that the danger of cops shooting other cops was strongly emphasized. Tragically, in the few days prior to the long scheduled class, a local cop (to that area) was shot & killed by responding cops at a violent incident. He was reportedly armed and holding his weapon in his hand. It's been so long that I can't remember if the cop was on-scene in either UC/plainclothes capacity or off-duty, but he wasn't known to the responding uniforms, who mistook him for an armed suspect who wasn't listening to them.

    I thought about that potential danger a LOT during the last 13 years of my career, which was a plainclothes assignment. I was often running into new cops I didn't know at my own agency, (even though as a firearms instructor I had a good chance of seeing them at some point at the range), and my caseload constantly took me into other jurisdictions.

    Nowadays, being retired and carrying both in-state and under LEOSA (for road trips), I always think about how best not to risk being shot by any cops, should I be unfortunate enough to become involved in something where I might be forced to draw a weapon during some incident.
     
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  3. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

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    YES, hell yes and spot on brother.

    retired LEO,firearms instr & D/T instr.

    And travel a good deal out of state and ALWAYS thinking about situational awareness and NOT GETTING SHOT = by anyone !.

    I wear a RETIREE badge in front of my primary [ strong side ] and a belted pouch that has a yellow banner in it.

    Banner can be worn across body and has LEOSA in black letters.

    Not positive that any will stop me from being misidentified,just hope I hear the command to drop the gun ------------- IF its still in my hand,BIG IF !. .
     
  4. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy member

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    As far as a civilian SD shooting, if the threat has been stopped and there are no other perceived threats for Pete's sake holster your weapon.

    I don't advise putting your gun out of your control, ie laying it on the ground, or driving away from the scene before LE shows up as has been mentioned before.

    But you for sure don't want to be holding a gun in your hand when the cops show up.
     
  5. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Strictly as a training point ... this is why it's critical to wear a quality holster with a rigid mouth to facilitate one-handed, no-look re-holstering ...

    Better to have your arms in the air (or prone yourself out) and let the responding officers immediately know you've got a holstered weapon (also, using a holster is typically a sign that one is a good guy).

    Once responded to an incident where an off-duty cop (from another agency) was holding someone at gunpoint ... poor guy was literally sweating from every pore (even though it was a cool night) and loudly screaming, "I'm a cop, I'm a cop, I'm a cop!" while he maintained a two-hand hold on his pistol ...
     
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  6. If1HitU

    If1HitU Member

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    Bad,another reason teachers should not be armed in schools.Something like this police shooting could happen to them too.
     
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  7. Cump

    Cump Member

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    Except the officers will expect to encounter teachers and know if guns are allowed in the school. That said, armed teachers also should holster their weapon when the threat is ended...
     
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  8. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    We were trained that when off duty and the suspect is under control, hold your shield facing backward in your raised hand.

    Also trained to yell a certain response when challenged.

    But when adrenaline is flowing, anything is possible.
     
  9. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That is not a logical conclusion.
     
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  10. Warp

    Warp Member

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    I hope you are just joking/trolling

    If you were to apply whatever "logic" you used to reach this conclusion to all other people all other places, nobody should be allowed to carry, anywhere, anytime
     
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  11. bubba in ca

    bubba in ca Member

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    Local districts and leo should train them for common scenarios. I doubt that more than 10% of teachers have the skill or will to carry and be effective, but by all means arm the talented tenth. Personally, I would go for the maintenance staff and some of the vice principals.
     
  12. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    I see two issues that apply to any and all situations when a non-uniformed "good guy" has to use force or threat of force and police arrive.

    First and most obvious, try very hard to not be holding a gun in your hand when the boys in blue show up. Everybody is stressed out. Stuff can go wrong when everybody is stressed out.
    Secondly, at what point did we decide that anyone and everyone holding a gun needs to be shot? Did the "good guy" make any movements that were perceived as threatening by the responding officers? Or was it simply a case of seeing a guy with a gun and shooting said guy with said gun? I carried a gun in some pretty crappy places on this planet and a whole lot of other people carried guns, too. The majority of them did not need to be shot. So we didn't shoot them.
     
  13. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    Did you guys read the article? Garces didn't have a holster to put the gun in because he wasn't carrying it to start with. He took it from the bad guy. He probably couldn't have been legally carrying one anyway. (see the part about him spending four years in prison?)

    It could, but it probably wouldn't if they didn't do something as stupid as keeping their gun in their hand while the police point guns at them and tell them to drop it.
     
  14. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Yes, I read the article, and that's why I said "strictly as a training point ..."

    Just things to think about if you have a gun when the police respond, as this is the "Strategy and Tactics" sub-forum, after all.
     
  15. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    Fair enough. As a police officer, what is your opinion of civilians and/or off duty cops carrying flex cuffs for this reason? Might help prevent that sort of problem if the good guy doesn't have to be "holding the bad guy at gunpoint" when the police show up. I don't carry them myself, but I know there's people that do.
     
  16. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Oh Lord no, do not carry flex cuffs and do not attempt to cuff anybody.
     
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  17. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    Yes, I've heard that. Why? And upon what experience are you basing this very concrete statement? Again, in case you didn't see this, I do not carry flex cuffs. It's a theoretical question.
     
  18. hdwhit

    hdwhit Member

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    But that assumes the armed teacher will know when the threat has been neutralized. It's not like everyone is in one big room and can see when the bad guy goes down.
     
  19. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    So, when do you suggest someone holster their weapon? "When the threat is is no longer a threat" is pretty much the universal standard, both for civilians and police.
     
  20. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Why?

    You have to get within arms reach of the threat to put cuffs on them. You want to 'get out of the danger zone', you want distance between you and the threat, the second to last thing you want is to voluntarily put yourself within arms reach where it is that much easier for the threat to harm or kill you.

    You have to put your gun within arms reach of the threat to put cuffs on them. The last thing you want to do is give the threat an opportunity to get your gun.

    You have to put a lot of focused attention on the threat to approach and cuff with any degree of safety, which necessarily takes away from your ability to be scanning around you. A great deal of the time, criminals act in pairs or groups. That quick 360* glance around you is a great way to break tunnel vision and look for other threats or good samaritans or responding LE, but if you are up close and personal with the threat, that glance around is a great opportunity for them to take initiative against you while you are looking away. (cops would prefer to approach and cuff with with a fellow officer watching their back, probably not an option for the private citizen who carries a gun)

    You aren't a cop. You aren't law enforcement. You aren't trained in doing this. You don't want the legal liability that comes along with detaining a person with no training and no agency/department/employer backing you up.
     
  21. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    many years ago I took a security guard training class where they spend some time teaching us to use cuffs. The instructors strongly recommended not cuffing anyone as it is very easy for someone who does not do it correctly to end up with the cuffs being used as a very effective weapon against the guy trying to put the cuffs on. It is also much, much harder to cuff someone who is resisting even in a minor way than TV and the movies make it look. Several students were allowed to attempt to cuff the instructor who agreed to lay on the ground on his stomach and even with two students trying to do so being given guidance by another instructor, they just could not do it with very limited resistance from the guy on the ground. It was a real eye opener for me. It convinced me I would never even try to cuff someone that might resist. Now for fun ... :)
     
  22. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    A family member detained a burglar at gun point for arrest by responding officers. The officers knew from the 911 call the person with the gun was detaining a burglar. No one got shot.

    I have read in the newspapers at least two instances since then of an armed resident detaining a burglar at gun point with no one being shot by responding officers.

    What makes national news (and court cases) are incidents like the opening post, which I suspect are the exception and not the rule.

    But formal training and advice appears based on cases that make headlines or court decisions.
     
  23. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    Warp said: Oh Lord no, do not carry flex cuffs and do not attempt to cuff anybody.
    bearcreek asked: Yes, I've heard that. Why?

    Civilian carriers of flex cuffs or hand cuffs could be mistaken for putative kidnappers or extreme Fifty Shades fans. I value my reputation in the community and carry neither.
     
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  24. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    True.

    I don't see how you could possibly know that about me. I don't even know your real name, let alone what training you've had.

    See, now that makes sense.
     
  25. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    The only people who think a private citizen cuffing someone is a good idea are people who have never cuffed anyone. I never carried cuffs off duty. When on duty I always tried to have another officer present before cuffing someone. For some reason a completely compliant subject often turns violent the second the first cuff hits the wrist.

    Then there is the possibility of being criminally charged with unlawful restraint if you cuff the wrong person. And we aren't even taking the civil liability into consideration. We've had several threads here on this issue, a search should bring them up.
     
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