Man who sold ammo to Vegas shooter is charged with manufacturing armor-piercing bullets

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I see a lot of folks who just don't seem to be following this and are making it all much more complicated than it actually is. It's really very simple.

Federal law requires that anyone engaged in the business of manufacturing ammunition have a license. And there is an additional license necessary to be engaged in the manufacturing of armor piercing ammunition. (See 18 USC 923(a)(1))

It does appear that Haig had a side business manufacturing and selling ammunition, and that some of the ammunition he made and sold might have been armor piercing ammunition. We don't seem to know what, if any licenses he held. The charge does, however, suggest that he didn't have whatever license he needed for what he did.

So Haig is being charged with engaging in the business of manufacturing ammunition without the proper federal license,

BigBore44 said:
I could see Frank weighing in on this one but I don’t think they could really get him for anything related to the massacre unless he knew he was planning something. ....
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Haig's alleged crimes have nothing whatsoever to do with the Las Vegas shooting. How the Las Vegas shooting enters into things is merely because during that investigation evidence of Haig's apparently illegal activities was found. That evidence caused the authorities to begin to investigate Haig, independently from the investigation of the Las Vegas shooting, and ultimately Haig's arrest.

It is often the case that an investigation of one crime will lead to the discovery of evidence of one or more other, unrelated, crimes.
 
saiga308 said:
whats strikes me as odd only 2 rounds where found looks suspicious
https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...ho-sold-ammo-vegas-shooter-charged/302831002/
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Why would that strike you as odd? What difference does it make?

Haig was not arrested solely because of those two rounds. But those two rounds were evidence sufficient to create suspicion. And because of that suspicion, federal authorities continued to investigate Haig. And by investigating further federal authorities found more evidence from which a pattern of criminal conduct by Haig could be inferred — until the federal authorities had sufficient evidence to support an application for a warrant for Haig’s arrest.
 
This has been bugging me all day. I'm not a expert, but average Joe. Armor piercing ammo is defined as being Hand gun calibers and was legislated to prohibit "Cop Killer Bullets". Rifle ammo was specifically omitted because they would penetrate vests regardless of being AP. ATF doesn't publish a list of "pistol calibers". A 18 year old can buy 9mm for his carbine but if he tells the cashier its for a hand gun he needs to be 21. The FBI charged Haig with violating 922(a)(7) which is the manufacturing of armor piercing...if it was not intended to be shot in a pistol it should not be illegal. Yes they make a non-single shot pistol (which is what ATF was using for a pistol/rifle in caliber determiner) in 308, but the intent of the original law was Vest piercing. If he reloads & sells any ammo as a "hobby" and not a primary source of income then does he need a manufacture license?
 
rfscjeep said:
....If he reloads & sells any ammo as a "hobby" and not a primary source of income then does he need a manufacture license?
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Manufacturing and selling ammunition doesn't have to be one's primary source of income to require a license. If could be a side business intended to bring in a little extra money.

And the line between "hobby" and "business" is not clear and distinct. In general, I would suspect that if one is spending a fair amount of his free time away from his "day job" making and selling ammunition and he's making some money at it, a jury is likely to find that he's engaged in the business of a manufacturer of ammunition.
 
Engaged in the business ...921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

Yep, clear as mud.
 
I find it odd an aerospace engineer who reloaded ammo for 20 years and had a web site selling the most controversial ammo you could possibly reload, and apparently frequented the gun show scene, had no idea he needed a license to load and sell it.
The stories also make it sound like he literally made these bullets on a lathe and press.
 
rfscjeep said:
Engaged in the business ...921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, ...
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That's the definition of "engaged in the business of a dealer in firearms." But the definitions of "manufacturer" and "engaged in the business of a manufacturer of ammunition" are found at 18 USC 921(a)(10) and 18 USC 921(a)(21)(B), respectively. But those definitions are substantially similar.

And whether you find them clear is irrelevant. They might be murky, but they are used by courts to send people to jail. I haven't done any research on prosecution of persons convicted of being engaged in the business of being a manufacturer of ammunition, but I've reviewed a number of federal courts of appeal decisions affirming the convictions of persons engaged in the business of a dealer in firearms. See this thread.
 
My point is that no other law enforcement could operate in the same fashion. Roads have speed limits & signs are posted, go too fast & you know your breaking the law. It would be the same as no speed limit signs & they ticket you when they think your going to fast.
 
rfscjeep said:
My point is that no other law enforcement could operate in the same fashion. Roads have speed limits & signs are posted, go too fast & you know your breaking the law. It would be the same as no speed limit signs & they ticket you when they think your going to fast.
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It is what is it. Many laws are not black and white. As far as speeding goes, some States have laws under which one can be cited for excessive speed even when under the speed limit, but travelling too fast for conditions.

But this discussion is really off topic for this thread, and it needs to end now.
 
I doubt most of the media knows the difference between armor piercing and tracer ammo .
 
rfscjeep said:
This has been bugging me all day. I'm not a expert, but average Joe. Armor piercing ammo is defined as being Hand gun calibers and was legislated to prohibit "Cop Killer Bullets". Rifle ammo was specifically omitted because they would penetrate vests regardless of being AP. ATF doesn't publish a list of "pistol calibers". A 18 year old can buy 9mm for his carbine but if he tells the cashier its for a hand gun he needs to be 21. The FBI charged Haig with violating 922(a)(7) which is the manufacturing of armor piercing...if it was not intended to be shot in a pistol it should not be illegal. Yes they make a non-single shot pistol (which is what ATF was using for a pistol/rifle in caliber determiner) in 308, but the intent of the original law was Vest piercing. If he reloads & sells any ammo as a "hobby" and not a primary source of income then does he need a manufacture license?
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There is, as they say, the way things are and the way they should be. The ATF has gone about defining what calibers are handgun calibers by the fact that someone offers a pistol for sale through regular commerce in that caliber. Hence, per ATF ruling, m2 AP loaded in a .308 case is AP pistol ammo. The same projectile in an .30/06 case is not, and as I'm fond of repeating, is specifically determined by ATF to be "Sporting" ammo. As mucked up as all of this is, I cannot imagine how much WORSE things could be if congress has the opportunity to modify the status quo to redress some of our concerns.
 
Frank Ettin said:
Haig's alleged crimes have nothing whatsoever to do with the Las Vegas shooting. How the Las Vegas shooting enters into things is merely because during that investigation evidence of Haig's apparently illegal activities was found. That evidence caused the authorities to begin to investigate Haig, independently from the investigation of the Las Vegas shooting, and ultimately Haig's arrest.

It is often the case that an investigation of one crime will lead to the discovery of evidence of one or more other, unrelated, crimes.
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^^^Funny how folks want to take something so simple and complicate it. Haig basically got caught up in the spitstorm surrounding the aftermath. Finding his name on an ammo box and fingerprints at the scene of the crime initially would have made him a person of interest. While there is no evidence he had anything at all to do with the shooting, evidence has shown he did violate the law when it comes to the manufacture and sale of ammo. Folks just need to make the separation.
 
Frank Ettin said:
That's the definition of "engaged in the business of a dealer in firearms." But the definitions of "manufacturer" and "engaged in the business of a manufacturer of ammunition" are found at 18 USC 921(a)(10) and 18 USC 921(a)(21)(B), respectively. But those definitions are substantially similar.

And whether you find them clear is irrelevant. They might be murky, but they are used by courts to send people to jail. I haven't done any research on prosecution of persons convicted of being engaged in the business of being a manufacturer of ammunition, but I've reviewed a number of federal courts of appeal decisions affirming the convictions of persons engaged in the business of a dealer in firearms. See this thread.
Click to expand...

It's not the clearest line with dealer in some ways, but manufacturer is crystal. If you're making firearms or ammunition for the purpose of distribution, you are manufacturing and need a license. There's no finite number of firearms you can sell before it constitutes "engaged in the business" of dealing, but with manufacturing, there is: ONE.
 
Hmmm? what would be the case in which the shooter gave 1000 empty brass to the reloader and asked for AP bullets to be reloaded for a fee? This looks legal to me. Loading the AP bullets for yourself also seems perfectly legal to me.
 
Loving the conspiracy theories in this thread. This sounds pretty cut and dry. Man loaded and sold AP ammunition without the appropriate licence. He happened to sell the ammunition to the Vegas shooter, which got traced back to him.
 
buck460XVR said:
While there is no evidence he had anything at all to do with the shooting, evidence has shown he did violate the law when it comes to the manufacture and sale of ammo.
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Er, no. Evidence has not shown he did not violate the law. There is the presumption of innocence.

Haig has denied making the ammunition. See page 5 of warrant.

I find some of facts in the warrant highly questionable;

“latent fingerprints found on two unfired .308 caliber cartridges were identified as the fingerprints of Douglas Haig.”

The small round surface of .308 cartridge case will only give a partial fingerprint that is long and relatively narrow. Is that really enough to meet the standard for positive identification in a Court of Law?

Even if the Court accepts the partial prints all it proves is Haig touched them. I am not going search for it but one report said Haig's name and address was found on some of cartridge boxes found in Paddock's hotel room. Maybe he buys loaded cartridges in bulk and packages them in small boxes for resale.

“these cartridges were marked with toolmarks consistent with markings made during reloading operations”

So what? Are the marks unique to Haig’s reloading dies and equipment?

“the bullets in the unfired cartridges with Douglas Haig’s fingerprints on them were metallurgically classified as armor piercing/incendiary bullets.”

So what? That doesn’t prove he put them in the case and seated the bullet.

“…two of the unfired armor piercing cartridges from Paddocks…hotel room (bearing Douglas Haig’s fingerprints) had tool marks consistent with the reloading equipment recovered in Haig’s backyard workshop…”

The warrant says “consistent” not unique. Consistent can be a wide standard / specification whereas unique is one.

How many of you have noticed how much of information is from Haig’s business partner “Associate”?

Associate "was aware Haig reloaded AP type ammunition and later sold that ammunition. He further admitted to assisting Haig in this business…”

Why isn’t the “Associate” real name used?

By the information in the warrant “Associate” was a active partner yet he has not been charged with a crime. Logical conclusion is he is going to tell the Feds whatever they want to hear to cut a deal to avoid going to jail. He is also going to minimize his involvement. Using informants "snitches" is risky and they are very often unreliable.

Blackstone said:
Loving the conspiracy theories in this thread. This sounds pretty cut and dry. Man loaded and sold AP ammunition without the appropriate licence. He happened to sell the ammunition to the Vegas shooter, which got traced back to him.
Click to expand...

Let's not fall into the Liberal trap of rushing to judgment. It is far from being cut and dry in a Court of Law. The Police and FBI are under tremendous pressure to determine a motive and whether this is really a "lone wolf" attack.
 
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I'm curious if he literally MADE the bullets. Not used pulled military bullets, but actually hand made each bullet (not talking about the loaded cartridge). The way that paperwork reads it sounds like he actually made the bullets by hand and then you could get them like ordering a cheese burger... with a little of this and a little of that.
 
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