Manual of Arms?

[Devonai]

Having been a member here for almost nine years, I have occasionally come across the philosophy that one must stick with one manual of arms for defensive carry, lest one make a fatal error during a high-stress engagement.

As far as the placement of a manual safety on an autoloader, I find myself cynical about this philosophy. I have trained with a variety of safeties, including frame mounted, slide mounted, and oddballs like the "reverse" safety arrangement of the Makarov. During my time on the range, I have never failed to remember which weapon was in my hand, and in which direction to swipe the safety.

In all fairness, I have never used a firearm under duress. However, I'm still not sure that the hardcore philosophy of choosing one safety arrangement and never deviating is practical or necessary.

Has anyone ever found themselves mashing on a safety in the wrong direction? Or to expand the discussion into mag releases, has anyone ever found themselves pushing on the wrong part of the frame out of habit for their most common carry piece? If so, how long did it take you to correct yourself? Would the error have cost you your life if in a real-world engagement?

 

[allaroundhunter]

During my time on the range, I have never failed to remember which weapon was in my hand, and in which direction to swipe the safety.

You answered why this statement is a flawed theory by saying that you have never used a firearm under duress. I was attacked by a wild dog while out on the farm, and all I had on me was my Glock 19. I honestly did not think about what I was doing, just presented the gun and fired. I could without a doubt have mixed up my safeties if I was carrying a gun with a safety because the majority of the guns that I carry do not have them.

This experience convinced me that carrying weapons with similar manual of arms is not just a good idea, but completely necessary (for me at least, OMMV)

 

[DesertVet]

Throughout my years in the military and law enforcement I carried, trained with, and was issued Smith & Wesson revolvers, M1911-A1s, Browning Hi Powers, Beretta 92FS/M-9s, Sig Sauer P228/M-11s, and Glocks in a few calibers. Manual of arms was different for several of them. Not an issue as long as you TRAIN & Familiarize with your weapon systems and manual of arms. IMHO.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Not an issue as long as you TRAIN & Familiarize with your weapon systems and manual of arms

My post could be taken as I am saying to only own Glocks, or only own XD's, but that is not what I mean.

I agree with DesertVet on this. I would be comfortable carrying any gun that I have trained with to a comfortable extent. OTOH, I still would not change my carry piece daily.

 

[dmazur]

Well, I only have two, and the manual of arms is completely different.

(1911 and Ruger Super Blackhawk).

I have many, many years of experience with the 1911, but am just getting comfortable with the SBH.

So far, I haven't tried to swipe the thumb safety off on the revolver...and that would be the kind of error that should occur, considering the degree of "habit" I have with the 1911.

It will probably take another 20 years before there is any danger I will draw the 1911 and try to thumb cock it.

 

[tipoc]

Has anyone ever found themselves mashing on a safety in the wrong direction? ... If so, how long did it take you to correct yourself? Would the error have cost you your life if in a real-world engagement?

On a safety in the wrong direction no, but with Sigs and guns without a safety I find myself trying to take a high thumb hold and looking to swipe the safety down and off as with a 1911 or BHP. A half dozen times over the years I've had to stop and look down at the Glock 19, etc. in my hand to see why the thumb safety is busted and where it went to. The 1911 or BHP fit my hand better, I am used to them and so I carry them over other semis. Interestingly I have never had the same mental glitch with a revolver. My hand knows the difference in the shape I suppose.

tipoc

 

[Resist Evil]

I use a 1911 style commander sized pistol and I am faithful to manipulating the thumb safety both in practice and at matches. When I switch to a small semiauto pistol without a thumb safety for deeper concealment, I habitually sweep where a thumb safety would be on my regular pistol. No harm done. If I use a revolver, my thumb still sweeps by and again, no harm done.

I only own 1911 pistols for primary carry. I have made a conscious decision to avoid semiautos that use a safety that has to be flipped up rather than down in my carry rotation. My semiautos are either 1911 types or those without thumb safety levers.

Since I practice with, carry, and compete with my primary carry pistol, the others are not a problem. I think I'd feel funny going the other direction.

 

[psyopspec]

Not an issue as long as you TRAIN & Familiarize with your weapon systems and manual of arms. IMHO.

I agree, and would add muscle memory to training. My hand knows what an M9 feels like, and will swipe at the safety in the right way if my stubby little fingers can reach it (Usually carry safety off and half-cocked to reduce reach to the trigger and make the slide-mounted safety lever "stiffer" to accidentally activate). I know what the grip of a 1911 feels like, and will swipe accordingly there too.

When it's my choice, I prefer autos without manual safety levers. Aim, squeeze, repeat. I've drawn the gun with the intention to defend myself one time. It was an M9, brief swipe of the thumb to ensure safety was off, and it was g2g. I remember doing it. I don't remember thinking about it. I'm not good; I'm just trained.

When I get to turn in the M9 and go home to my Glock 19, there'll be lots of drawing, dry firing, and range time both for enjoyment and reacquainting myself with the goal of making it just as automatic.

 

[kozak6]

I've had some problems while using some of my friend's shotguns. Automatic tang safeties mean I always miss the first few clay pigeons since I am used to manual crossbolt safeties.

I don't like pistol safeties that swipe up since it's a weak motion, since they don't work as well with small hands, and since they increase fumble potential.

 

[Plan2Live]

This discussion drives home the reason why I prefer DA/SA Hammer Fired platforms like the S&W 459 I have owned for 25 years. It has a decocker, not a saftey. Once a round is chambered I decock the action (using the decocker) and flip it back into the fire mode. I have never found the decocker in the down position prior to firing, ever. The longer DA trigger pull on the first round is plenty of "safety" for me. As to the argument that some prefer a "consistent" triggger pull, my S&W is consistent, the first round is consistently around 10lbs and the subsequent shots are consistenly 5lbs. I wish there were more choices in this configuration.

 

[BeerSleeper]

It depends on your training.

This can be a very big issue. Or, it can be a total non-issue.

 

[JTQ]

Plan2Live wrote,
This discussion drives home the reason why I prefer DA/SA Hammer Fired platforms like the S&W 459 I have owned for 25 years. It has a decocker, not a saftey. Once a round is chambered I decock the action (using the decocker) and flip it back into the fire mode. I have never found the decocker in the down position prior to firing, ever.

While I'm not that familiar with the S&W 459 pistol specifically, S&W semi-auto's typically are equipped with a safety/decocker. As you mentioned you must manually "flip it back into fire mode". That indicates if you did not manually return the lever to the fire position it would stay in the Safe Position and act as a safety as intended by the manufacturer.

A pistol with out a safety, but a decocker, would be the Sig line of DA/SA autos where the pistol is decocted with a lever, but the lever is spring loaded to return to its' normal position. Ruger also produced pistols such as this at one time though they no longer do. CZ's "D" line of pistols also have a decocker and no safety.

 

[bigfatdave]

In all fairness, I have never used a firearm under duress. However, I'm still not sure that the hardcore philosophy of choosing one safety arrangement and never deviating is practical or necessary.

Has anyone ever found themselves mashing on a safety in the wrong direction?

Have you used ANY complex tool under duress? For example, when driving the wife's car, I would have to think about where the emergency flashers are, while in mine, I can slap the button without looking (that's the first control to come to mind, there are a LOT that fall into that category)
So if I'm pulling over to help some idiot who spun out in front of me in my car, I see the spinout ahead, put on my flashers, and start looking for somewhere to pull in behind them that will block traffic from behind (this was a recent thing, don't get too hung up on the example) ... on the other hand, if that went on with the wife driving my car instead of me driving, she would fumble in the wrong place and not be looking for whatever spun out the car ahead, eyes off of a KNOWN dangerous road.

Now, what that means for carry handguns is that I select handguns that work when the right thumb is swiped down from the rear sight to the frame. I will either disengage a safety lever or encounter nothing. As far as magazine releases, I've gotten into the habit of using both the modern Walther flipper and a 1911-style button, and as they use different fingers I just do both motions. I do have a couple heel release guns, they're not preferred for carry, but I wouldn't carry nothing instead of them, that isn't a deal-breaker for carry like an "up for less safe" lever.

 

[AFDavis11]

It has happened to me in a non-stressful situation. I think it is something that deserves consideration.

One thing to keep in mind is that you have to have a lot of training in order for the intuitive action to become memorized. You can't just go to the range and shoot a variety of guns, and then declare the concept pointless.

Also, in my opinion, you need two similar guns. At least I think it helps create the problem.

If you train hard for a long time with, let's say a 1911, it's very possible that if you suddenly carry a Springfield XD, you might try and swip off the safety. Under duress you follow your training.

Same goes for re-loading. I was taught that cops often died in gun battles with brass in their pockets. That is how they were taught to reload at the range.

Usually it only takes a second to realize that the gun isn't firing. If you train with a revolver for years, and suddenly start carrying a 1911 though, the gun is so different thet you know what to do when you draw, or the small amount of the most recent training over-rides the mistakes, so I'm told.

I would recommend training extensively with any new carry weapon, for a lot of reasons.

 

[Lawdawg45]

Having been a member here for almost nine years, I have occasionally come across the philosophy that one must stick with one manual of arms for defensive carry, lest one make a fatal error during a high-stress engagement.

As far as the placement of a manual safety on an autoloader, I find myself cynical about this philosophy. I have trained with a variety of safeties, including frame mounted, slide mounted, and oddballs like the "reverse" safety arrangement of the Makarov. During my time on the range, I have never failed to remember which weapon was in my hand, and in which direction to swipe the safety.

In all fairness, I have never used a firearm under duress. However, I'm still not sure that the hardcore philosophy of choosing one safety arrangement and never deviating is practical or necessary.

Has anyone ever found themselves mashing on a safety in the wrong direction? Or to expand the discussion into mag releases, has anyone ever found themselves pushing on the wrong part of the frame out of habit for their most common carry piece? If so, how long did it take you to correct yourself? Would the error have cost you your life if in a real-world engagement?

Kudos, this is an often neglected/ignored topic that has always been prominent in my thinking. The stress memory function of the brain is a funny thing to understand and grasp, and to answer your highlighted question, yes there have been Officers killed trying to fire a 1911 type weapon with the safety engaged, or those causing a life threatening delay trying to dis-engage a non existent safety on a revolver, etc. Even with regular training, in my opinion, the brain has a difficult time trying to distinguish between a revolver, semi-auto, or 1911 in a stressful situation and could cause a life threatening situation.

Our academy instruction in the early 90's went so far as to recommend carrying the same make/style revolver to eliminate any possible confusion in the wide differences in cylinder releases between S&W, Ruger, and Colt.

LD

 

[JTQ]

bigfatdave wrote,
Have you used ANY complex tool under duress? For example, when driving the wife's car, I would have to think about where the emergency flashers are, while in mine, I can slap the button without looking (that's the first control to come to mind, there are a LOT that fall into that category)
So if I'm pulling over to help some idiot who spun out in front of me in my car, I see the spinout ahead, put on my flashers, and start looking for somewhere to pull in behind them that will block traffic from behind (this was a recent thing, don't get too hung up on the example) ... on the other hand, if that went on with the wife driving my car instead of me driving, she would fumble in the wrong place and not be looking for whatever spun out the car ahead, eyes off of a KNOWN dangerous road.

bigfatdave,
I get your point, but I think the emergency flasher is probably a bad analogy. It is not something you use every time you use that car. Heck, I have a 10 year old car with over 150,000 miles on it, and I put just about every one of those miles on that car and I have to look to find the emergency flasher button. I've probably pushed that button 10 times in those 10 years and most of those times are just to see if I could find it and see if it works.

The better analogy may be is you drive an automatic, and your wife drives a manual. Every time you drive your wife's car you have to use the clutch and shift the gears. The question is do you have enough familiarity with the car to activate those controls in an emergency. The thumb safety on a 1911 is similar. To use the 1911, you have to operate the thumb safety just about every time you handle the pistol.

 

[ATLDave]

yes there have been Officers killed trying to fire a 1911 type weapon with the safety engaged, or those causing a life threatening delay trying to dis-engage a non existent safety on a revolver, etc.

You got a source for this?

 

[bigfatdave]

I think the emergency flasher is probably a bad analogy.

I never claimed it was a perfect example, just one fresh in my mind

But you should be able to run the major features of your defensive armament without deliberate thought, the same way you operate the major features of your vehicle. Having a control missing is a mild annoyance, having one operate in the opposite direction is a terrible idea, if you ever need a firearm, it is unlikely you will have time to stare at the side and determine which control layout you have today.

 

[JTQ]

Originally Posted by Lawdawg45
yes there have been Officers killed trying to fire a 1911 type weapon with the safety engaged, or those causing a life threatening delay trying to dis-engage a non existent safety on a revolver, etc.

ATLDave wrote,
You got a source for this?

That's a good question.

Masaad Ayoob has an article in the Mar/Apr 2011 American Handgunner, titled ""Safety Catch" Lessons From Real-World Shootings" where he finds no instances where the presence of a safety caused injury or loss of life to the individual with the safety equipped gun. Conversely, he found many instances where the individual's life was saved after the individual lost their weapon in a struggle and the bad guy was unfamiliar with the weapon and unable to fire due to a safety.

This doesn't mean an officer has never been killed because he/she couldn't operate a safety equipped pistol, but it probably means it is so rare that Ayoob couldn't find it.

 

[mavracer]

I think people make more of this than it really is. It all comes down to training and how you deal with stress. There's nothing that says you have to panic in a fight. Train yourself to think under stress.

 

[2wheels]

IIRC Ayoob has written that he's only found one example of a person failing to disengage the manual safety on their handgun, and it was a guy who admitted to rarely training with his gun. It was a PPK I think.

 

[JTQ]

IIRC Ayoob has written that he's only found one example of a person failing to disengage the manual safety on their handgun, and it was a guy who admitted to rarely training with his gun. It was a PPK I think.

You are correct, my error. It was a jewelry store owner that failed to operate the safety. He did get shot, several times, but survived.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I heard one story of a hunter of some renown got killed by some charging beastie.
He was used to a tang safety that was "off" when forward. Perhaps a Browning, yada yada.
He died with a BRNO (if memory serves) in his hands, trying to fire an on safe rifle. Those are on safe when forward.

 

[Creature]

I cant tell you how many times I have been a range coach in the military for persons who I would described as very familiar and experienced with the M9...yet these same indivuduals have failed to disengage the safety on the M9 during timed quals. These timed qualification events can fairly be described as stress-free. I am willing to bet that this occurance is more common than one might think.

 

[tipoc]

It is not a matter of the gun or the type of safety involved. It's more a matter of familiarity with both oneself and the gun. There is an old, very old, saying that the hunter who brings an unproven and untested rifle on the hunt is a fool. Meaning that unfamiliarity with the gun can lead to bad results and that the responsibility for the results rests on the hunter.

So the question seems to be how comfortable is the shooter with the piece they are carrying? Are they confident of their capabilities with it. If not use what you are comfortable with and are confident that you can use well under stress. It is one of those factors, like ammo that shoots where you want it to, like holster selection, magazines that work, etc. that can make a difference and that are also the responsibility of the shooter.

A person has to know their limitations.

tipoc