Many agree that amsec/strudy are equal

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Amsec uses 11 gauge.
Not my earlier AMSEC.

I'm not the one who used the word "uses." For all I know they used 1/4" in the past, now they "use" 11 gauge. Since there was a good part of another thread devoted to this, which I didn't participate in btw, I think it's important for people to know that
it's 11 gauge. We don't want prospective buyers to think they're getting 10 gauge when they are not.
 
I can poke my finger through 1 stiffened sheet of paper. Add a few layers and it won't work. Same principle. More steel of same quality = better than less steel.

This is a fine argument if you're using your finger to try and poke through it. But, we are talking about a pic ax here. .050" more steel is not going to matter in this case.

I'm done going tit for tat on this issue. I invite Sturdy to re-do the video with their 7 gauge steel, using the same pick ax (fix the handle first), with the same amount of force. I'm confident the safe will be breached. I'm not trying to prove that one safe company is better than the other. I'm trying to prove that any gun safe using gauge steel will not hold up to a pick ax attack.

The Sturdy video in my opinion is working with the ignorance of people who have no idea that the only difference between their 7 gauge, and 10 gauge steel is .050".
 
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Some say the Drylite is not that hard but all I can say is the sample I have seen on display at where I bought my BF was pretty hard and certainly harder than sheetrock which any of use could punch through with our own fist or some spongy insulating material.
I know I would not punch on that wall of Drylite with my fist!!

I'd love to see AMSEC do a video of a pick ax attack too on one of their BF series safes. To me, it seems like that drylite would be a good deterrent if it was hard enough. On the other hand, if it's a softer material, yet firm enough to not let the outer steel flex some, it seems like it would allow quicker/more damage by supporting the steel some, yet letting the pick penetrate the drylite.
 
Why do you think all of these gun safe manufacturers are advertising steel measured in gauge instead of inches? Which sounds more secure; 7 gauge or .1793 inch?

If you want a safe that will resist a tool attack, you need steel plate. Nothing measured in gauge, even if doubled up, will give you that type of protection. Manufacturers can make videos of them attacking their safes with pry bars, hammers, and axes, but they are being dishonest if they say their safe will stop these types of attacks. The only thing they can do is slow these types of attacks.

As far as basic safe construction goes, a cement filled safe is the norm. It's the norm for a safe with a fire rating, and it's also the norm for safes with a burglary rating. The fill materials will change from manufacturer to manufacturer, and certainly between the types of safes. Detractors of this type of construction are usually those trying to sell something that isn't built as well.

Gun safe manufacturers have not done anything that hasn't been done before aside from figure out that the right type of marketing will allow them to dupe consumers into buying a product that will not perform as perceived.

I'd love to see AMSEC do a video of a pick ax attack too on one of their BF series safes.

I'm not a big fan of manufacturers making videos, posting testimonials, or showing photographs of "real life situations". All of these things tend to favor the manufacturer, while anything that works against the manufacturer can be manipulated, ignored, or otherwise doctored.
 
I'd love to see AMSEC do a video of a pick ax attack too on one of their BF series safes. To me, it seems like that drylite would be a good deterrent if it was hard enough. On the other hand, if it's a softer material, yet firm enough to not let the outer steel flex some, it seems like it would allow quicker/more damage by supporting the steel some, yet letting the pick penetrate the drylite.

Judging from this picture, a pick ax attack video on their BF series safe is the last video AMSEC would want to make:

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The problem with having a material that's supposed to be both for security and fire protection is that the two traits are working against each other. Maybe if they went for a higher density for more strength then put copper mesh wire within the concrete to help move the heat around to colder sections of the body it would help but seeing as AMSEC is reducing the metal content in the BF series safe it appears they are more worried about cutting costs then making a better safe.

If you want a safe that will resist a tool attack, you need steel plate. Nothing measured in gauge, even if doubled up, will give you that type of protection. Manufacturers can make videos of them attacking their safes with pry bars, hammers, and axes, but they are being dishonest if they say their safe will stop these types of attacks. The only thing they can do is slow these types of attacks.

But if you want REAL serious protection build a vault.
 
Judging from this picture, a pick ax attack video on their BF series safe is the last video AMSEC would want to make:

Stirring the pot again I see.

The fact is, a Sturdy safe, and an AMSEC would most likely be equal in a fire ax attack. Your picture of the putty that AMSEC uses to doll up their corners only proves you don't want to use putty to build the walls out of. I guess AMSEC could delete the putty and have all their welds, and weld splatter exposed like Sturdy does.

And further more, I think the video of 10 gauge sheet metal getting poked full of holes is the last video Sturdy will do like that. They certainly aren't going to do an exact duplicate using their 7 gauge steel, because we/they all know what will happen. In my opinion, they should have never made that video, because it shows how weak steel sheet goods are against a pick ax. And basically broadcasts to the world how to pop holes in a gun safe made from gauge steel.....including theirs.
 
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Stirring the pot again I see.

Actually what I'd really like to see is some photos of some BF series safes that survived a pry bar attack, fire ax attack, house fire like we have all seen for Sturdy safe to consider them as equal which is the point of the thread because based on thicker steel, better insulation, tighter tolerances, stronger door design, better warranty, I think Sturdy is far superior but yes maybe that's stirring the pot.

They certainly aren't going to do an exact duplicate using their 7 gauge steel, because we/they all know what will happen. In my opinion, they should have never made that video, because it shows how weak steel sheet goods are against a pick ax. And basically broadcasts to the world how to pop holes in a gun safe made from gauge steel.....including theirs.

And anyone who walks down the street with a fire ax is also broadcasting to the world that they are going to try to break into something. Puncturing steel with an impact tool like a fire ax is like walking up an escalator the wrong way, if you don't walk fast enough you'll never get to the top. Similarly, if you are not providing enough force to induce plastic deformation in the steel, the metal will flex and rebound to it's original state for a very very long time. So even though there is only 37.3% more metal on 7ga verses 10ga it doesn't mean that it will take 37.3% longer to get in because it will take much longer and may never happen if you are within the metals yield strength.
 
.......I think we are in mile 22 of a marathon...
O.K....Today I decided to check out Fire Axes..No such thing at two Home Depots or at a Loews.
Tried True Value.
Nothing there either.
Oh true all these stores had sledeghammers,picks,and mauls but no true fire axes.
So I checked my W.W. Grainger catalogue.
Yea they had them and for a pretty good price.
Next I checked online.
Yep,sure enough you could find them for anywhere at $40.00(imports) to close to $180.00 for a true heat treated hardened real deal.
I am quite sure Marty Meth and Cecil Crackhead will go out and buy these up right away.
Yes, we can beat our way eventually into the Sturdy,Amsec BF,your Browning Platinum,Heritage Ultimate,Liberty Presidential,etc,...even the famed B rate Graffunder(with enough time).
But these fire axes are not just lying around just waiting for this kind of work guys.
Not exactly the kind of tool your average thief,burglar,etc. is going to have at all.
So if I had my trusty Dewalt Sawzall or my fireaxe beware!!
This again is why I say we are going way over board to the point of straining gnats.
These home gun safes are certainly no TL-30 safe,but as long as your general thief does not know you have this premium safe it is very unlikely he will be getting in.
Given enough time and tools you will lose the bet more times than not.
These upper grade gun safes are not marshmellows and more times than not will win the fight against your typical home break in artist.
 
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would'nt you be more safe with 7 ga safe

For maybe 10-20 seconds longer possibly. You do get it right? A pick ax is going to pop right through that 7 gauge steel as well. It's not going to do any better.

I'm still waiting for Sturdys new video of the pick ax attack on 7 gauge steel. They had to realize we were going to ask for that when they posted the other video.
 
BiggBay if your asking me what safe I have it's the Amsec BF.
I would be plenty happy with the Sturdy safe as well.
One just has to decide what is the acceptable risk level they are willing to take on their choice of gun safe for the goods they are trying to protect.
Today I went to a local sporting goods store to get my hunting license and while there I walked over and checked an array of Cannon,Browning,and Stack On 12 gauge gun safes.
All I can say is something is better than nothing and if your sole goal is keeping your kids and their little friends out of your guns and such they are fine.
Myself I would not buy one of the safes I looked at today on a bet.
Flimsy,weak,and poorly made at best.
Save up and buy a bit higher grade box I say.
How high you ask??
Well,never gamble more than you can afford to lose.
I am very happy with my final choice.
 
Judging from this picture, a pick ax attack video on their BF series safe is the last video AMSEC would want to make:

I wouldn't want to scratch a perfectly good safe either. I can't speak for AMSEC, but as a security professional I was taught to never provide any useful information to would be burglars. For example, not showing them a video on how to put holes into gun safes.

If you look around the internet, you'll see lots of videos from gun safe manufacturers. You won't see any from real safe manufacturers. It's obvious who takes the security of their customers (and non customers) seriously.

But if you want REAL serious protection build a vault.

A safe is a free standing unit, and a vault is typically a built in room. Neither has anything to do with the level of security.

Actually what I'd really like to see is some photos of some BF series safes that survived a pry bar attack, fire ax attack, house fire like we have all seen for Sturdy safe to consider them as equal which is the point of the thread because based on thicker steel, better insulation, tighter tolerances, stronger door design, better warranty, I think Sturdy is far superior but yes maybe that's stirring the pot

Google for these types of results, and a funny thing happens. Last time I looked, I couldn't find any photos of a burglarized or burned AMSEC BF series. Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's not very common. Residential fires with safes are not common. Residential burglaries with safes being attacked are not common.

So the real question is why are so many Sturdy safes involved in these tragedies? I would bet AMSEC is selling more safes than Sturdy, but don't seem to be experiencing the same bad luck.

doesn't mean that it will take 37.3% longer to get in because it will take much longer and may never happen if you are within the metals yield strength.

So how long would it take?
 
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You know what a1abdj says about googling these things is true.
The other day,inspired by so many of these threads, I came across a picture while googling gun safe break ins of a Fort Knox safe that had literally been opened up by a sawzall type of devise.
The owner posted the thieves had plenty of time because he was gone on vacation and the thieves had gone through several blades(many broken blades were inside and outside the safe) to get to where they had defeated the safe.
I have seen with my own eyes a 12 gauge Cannon Patriot that had been beaten open.

I have seen on internet postings two Liberty safes that had been cut open with another sawzall type of tool.
We have all seen the gun safe a1abdj has shown that has been beaten open.
And the one on YouTube that was pried open in a minute and a half.
Then there is the poor soul I read about over at a Glock forum who had his Sam's Winchester safe pryed right open.
You can also look currently at Liberty's website and view a top of the line Presidential that did,according to Liberty,thwart an attack of prying,beating,and sawing.
Of course the gun safe is completely totalled.
True I have never seen a BF or Sturdy in this group,with time and the internet as our friend most likely you will one day.
But the most recurring thing I seem to see in all of this is most of the gun safes breeched were usually lower tier units.
Truth be told on a whole there is not an over abundance of gun safes broken into in large scale by the sheer numbers sold.
However the better companies that warrant them for break in replacement/repairs I am sure could tell you some storys each year.
But for the most part wont be so public about this to protect your own safe and of course their image as well.
But I am willing to bet out there in the last three years or so in our sorry economic situation nation wide Amsec and Sturdy has made a break in warranty replacement to some owner(s).
Think about it.
 
But for the most part wont be so public about this to protect your own safe and of course their image as well.

This is why I couldn't believe that Sturdy would make a video showing a fire ax attack on gauge steel. Like I said, they basically just showed the world a way to get into any gun safe made from gauge steel even their own.

I think that was a big mistake on their part, and not very security conscious.
 
I'm still waiting for Sturdys new video of the pick ax attack on 7 gauge steel.

And I'm still waiting for any Amsec video of any attack on their safe. Oh that's right I forgot, they've got better things to do, like sell safes.

Of course no one is stoping you from getting some 7 gauge and a fire axe and making a video.

This is why I couldn't believe that Sturdy would make a video showing a fire ax attack on gauge steel.

It was a "private" video for members of this forum. I'm not worried that you, or any other member of this forum is going to try to break into anyone's safe. Of course execpt of A1abdj. And he'll only do it if he's being paid to do it by the owner.

Google for these types of results, and a funny thing happens. Last time I looked, I couldn't find any photos of a burglarized or burned AMSEC BF series. Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's not very common. Residential fires with safes are not common. Residential burglaries with safes being attacked are not common.

So the real question is why are so many Sturdy safes involved in these tragedies? I would bet AMSEC is selling more safes than Sturdy, but don't seem to be experiencing the same bad luck.

Oh Ok, not sure I'm following your logic here. We've seen a picture of a Sturdy that was in a fire, and one that was hit with a fire axe. That adds up to two. Let's say I'm missing a couple, now we have four. Are you saying four Amsecs haven't been attacked or in a fire??? Perhaps Amsec doesn't want to broadcast to the whole how their safes faired when put to the test?
 
And I'm still waiting for any Amsec video of any attack on their safe. Oh that's right I forgot, they've got better things to do

Yes, like preserve their customers security.

Of course no one is stoping you from getting some 7 gauge and a fire axe and making a video.

That has crossed my mind, but I already know what the results will be, and so does Sturdy. I simply want to see if they have the nerve to post it themselves.

It was a "private" video for members of this forum

Go back and read Sturdys post. They said they are going to re-do it because they broke their handle on the ax. They want to show even more damage, and then post it on their web site for the world to see. Don't take my word for it, go back and read Sturdys comments yourself.

and one that was hit with a fire axe

The fire ax attack on the Sturdy was on their steel plate door, not their thin walled steel body. I can only assume an AMSEC BF series would fair better since their steel plate door is thicker than the Sturdy. If the walls are hit on either safe, there will be holes.
 
Heeler say--- the bf amsec

Heeler i see you have the bf(i'v seen picture online(looks great) but have you ever seen the sturdy safe in person
keizer---that sturdy video was not an ***how to video***it just show that 10ga can be penertrated (you already knew that as well as you said it can happen to 7 ga also)--i'm just wondering,i under a1adbj interests but do you also sale amsec safes
 
Google for these types of results, and a funny thing happens. Last time I looked, I couldn't find any photos of a burglarized or burned AMSEC BF series. Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's not very common. Residential fires with safes are not common. Residential burglaries with safes being attacked are not common.

So the real question is why are so many Sturdy safes involved in these tragedies? I would bet AMSEC is selling more safes than Sturdy, but don't seem to be experiencing the same bad luck.

Well a thought comes to mind, maybe that's why the AMSEC BF is so willing to pay all costs to replace their safes in a burglary or fire. Maybe it's to get them out of view as quickly as possible so photos don't start floating around that their safes aren't performing as advertised. After all, if they really thought they had a great safe, why wouldn't they pay for other mechanical defects in their safe after a year?

Sturdy posted their own photos because they are proud (as they should be) of how their safes performed during these "tragedies". Actually, they have one that made the news in CA of some guys breaking into a house and working on their safe for hours and finally ended up having the owner open it for them when she got home.

Sturdy is doing a service for people of this forum by showing 10ga just isn't enough, I'm thankful and I'm sure a few others are as well.

Quote: (adirondack)
doesn't mean that it will take 37.3% longer to get in because it will take much longer and may never happen if you are within the metals yield strength.
Quote: (a1abdj): So how long would it take?

It depends, if you are below the yield strength then you are relying on metal fatigue so in that case 100,000 cycles maybe? I'm not saying it will in this case, that welder could swing a fire ax pretty hard.
 
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I think your first paragraph is a bit of a stretch with a touch of pot stirring Adirondack.
As has been noted before Amsec,which is a true security/safe company produces in excess of 60,000 safes of all sorts every year.
I think it is entirely possible that a number of them fall victim to burglary attacks in which some are entered and others are not.
One thing about security companies is that they are pretty tight lipped about their business as well as their customers.
Just the nature of the industry really.
Somewhere out there I am quite sure there has been a BF model successfully broken into.
And some where out there I would not be surprised if one of their flagship TL-30's has not met that same fate.

I am thinking seriously into getting in the business of making gnat strainers.
Might make a fortune around here.
 
keizer---that sturdy video was not an ***how to video***it just show that 10ga can be penertrated (you already knew that as well as you said it can happen to 7 ga also)

I knew it because I researched safes online to make a purchase. And now, criminals will also know it when they research safes to make a score.

i'm just wondering,i under a1adbj interests but do you also sale amsec safes

No, I'm a building contractor......I sell construction jobs. I'm also a former journey level machinist. So, I know a fair share about welding, gauge steel, and really tight tolerances.
 
why wouldn't they pay for other mechanical defects in their safe after a year?

Maybe that's why Sturdy does......because they don't want pics of their safes mechanicals failing all over the internet. :D

On my construction jobs, I offer a one year warranty only. That's because if something doesn't happen in the first year, it isn't going to happen. Normal wear and tear, and acts of God are not covered.
 
And I'm still waiting for any Amsec video of any attack on their safe. Oh that's right I forgot, they've got better things to do, like sell safes.

In business almost 70 years, 60,000 safes a year, 150,000 square feet worth of manufacturing facility, 400 employees, 9 different UL certifications, 1,200 dealers nationwide, sales of between $100,000,000 and $500,000,000 (a year), and 0 videos of how to burglarize a safe.

I wouldn't hold your breath, I don't think it's going to happen.

It was a "private" video for members of this forum. I'm not worried that you, or any other member of this forum is going to try to break into anyone's safe. Of course execpt of A1abdj.

Except anybody with the ability to use Google can find this site, this discussion, and that link. They also mentioned putting a newer and improved video directly on their website.

Are you saying four Amsecs haven't been attacked or in a fire??? Perhaps Amsec doesn't want to broadcast to the whole how their safes faired when put to the test?

I can only tell you what I have seen, and what I can find. I haven't seen any, and I can't find any. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but surely one would think that somebody that suffered a bad experience would mention it somewhere online.

Look at all the effort you make to disparage their safes, and you don't even own one. Surely somebody who suffered an actual loss would mention it somewhere.

Well a thought comes to mind, maybe that's why the AMSEC BF is so willing to pay all costs to replace their safes in a burglary or fire. Maybe it's to get them out of view as quickly as possible so photos don't start floating around that their safes aren't performing as advertised.

AMSEC only started doing this because every other gun safe manufacturer already was.

why wouldn't they pay for other mechanical defects in their safe after a year?

Because the industry standard when it comes to safe warranties is 1 year, and any mechanical defect will appear long before then.

It depends, if you are below the yield strength then you are relying on metal fatigue so in that case 100,000 cycles maybe? I'm not saying it will in this case, that welder could swing a fire ax pretty hard.

So I would have to hit 7 gauge steel with a fire axe 100,000 times to get it to puncture?

I think you need to recheck your math.
 
[QUOTEOn my construction jobs, I offer a one year warranty only. That's because if something doesn't happen in the first year, it isn't going to happen. Normal wear and tear, and acts of God are not covered.][/QUOTE]


I'm sure you do good work but I know many people, including myself, who would not agree with the above statement.
 
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