Many dangerous game rifles fail the field test...

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what is a 'bind rail"?
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It's an anti-binding device, meant to keep the bolt from twisting or moving sideways and jamming when being worked rapidly. The bolt sllides back controlled by the rail.

This is one of the new devices incorporated in the "Classic" Model 70s -- the Pre-'64 version didn't have it.
 
What kind of Winchester Model 70 safety is he talking about? The standard right handed Model 70 Classic has a safety that is released by the right thumb in a forward throw. His last photo in the article shows some sort of safety that is released in a rearward press by the left thumb! Is this the way the safety is on a Win 70 Safari or African Custom?

JohnDog (Slightly confused):confused:
 
Hmmm....terrific video.

I guess Alaskan bears aren't the only animals requiring howitzers to stop a charge!

The chap who got knocked down is luckier than he can imagine.
 
I'm wondering if the .416 Remington 700s have a weaker extractor than versions for cartridges with a smaller case head? I don't recall reading about these kind of failures in, say, .308 or 7-08 rifles. (?)
 
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What kind of Winchester Model 70 safety is he talking about?
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He's talking about the standard, 3-position, side-swing safety.

To understand his point , take a Springfield or military Mauser (without any modifications or scope) and release the safety. Your right thumb ends up on the left side of the stock, very near the proper gripping position.

Then try a Model 70, or a Ruger MKII, Your thumb winds up on the right side of the stock, and you have to make a separate motion to achieve the proper gripping position.

It's a very small thing (although a PH in Africa apparetly would think different.) For what it's worth, I replaced the Bhueler safety on Bigfoot Wallace (my custom '03 Springfield in .35 Brown-Whelen) with a Winchester style safety. I like that safety.
 
Ah! Less confused now.

I'm a big fan of the Win M70, but I've never hunted anything that that extra half second to get the thumb over grip would make any difference. Of course I've never hunted anything that could smash or eat me either. Good info to question/observe about your PH if your ever on a Safari.

JohnDog
 
I've never been in a situation where getting the safety off fast was that important. I HAVE shot running game and had no problem disengaging the Winchester safety.
 
Hmmm . . . lots of good info here. He mentions the Brno/CZ rifles having stocks that crack . . . I can confirm that. On my last safari (to Zambia) the PH had Brno rifles in .375 and .458 . . . and these were older versions that had the pop-up ghost ring in the rear receiver bridge. Upon examining these one day at the end of the safari, I noticed that BOTH were beginning to crack the stock. There was a clearly visible hairline crack just ahead of the magazine box on the .375, and hairline cracks were visible both in front of AND behind the magazine box on the .458.

The PH didn't believe me until we took the rifles into the sunlight and looked closely . . . then he was rather shaken . . . a firm believe in Murphy's Law, he felt that if the rifle were to self destruct, it would no doubt happen at the worst possible time.

I have a "push feed" M70 Winchester that I've glass bedded, and all I'll say about that is that I've never had the least difficulty manipulating the safety in a hurry, nor has the rifle malfunctioned in any way whatsoever in thousands of rounds both on the range and in the field, no matter how fast I worked the bolt. But it's only a .30/06 and I don't feed it questionable ammo . . .

My Browning/FN .375 doesn't have controlled feed . . . but I've glass bedded it myself and put in reinforced crossbolts. It, too, works 100% no matter how fast I manipulate the bolt.
 
How do these big-bore dangerous game cartidges compare to slug or sabot-slug shotgun rounds? - Langenator
-A typical 12-gauge shotgun slug drives a 1-ounce projectile at about 1600 FPS, for about 2500 ft-lbs of energy. The fastest 1-ounce slugs I could find listed online are up around 1850 fps, for about 3300 ft-lbs.
-A 375 H&H goes up to around 4800 ft-lbs.
-A 416 Rigby is around 5000 ft-lbs.
-A 450 Win Mag is also right around 5000 ft-lbs..... as is a 470 Nitro Express...
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- It is interesting to browse through a current ballistics summary table and see that there are all these new-fangled custom calibers out now that have way more power than the older traditional ones. A 450 Dakota goes up to around 7000 ft-lbs. A 460 Weatherby Mag goes up to 7500.
~
 
DougCxx: What the paper figures aren't going to tell you is the high sectional density of a proper heavy bullet in one of the large rifles will penetrate, break bones, and generally hurt a target more than the 1 oz slug.
 
416 Rem Mag: My opinion, after viewing the ctg ONCE was that it was going to be a problem. Those old Nitro Express ctgs are LARGE for their size for a reason. The Weatherby at first, and now newer USA magnum type ctgs seem to be trying to pack the biggest bang for the buck into the smallest package. The Win 458 has the problem of reacting to temp/atmosperic conditions and just plain pressure of trying to put 2 pounds of powder into a 1 pound sack, if you will. The 416 Rem is also guilty of the same overzealous expectations given its size. The 416 Rem IIRC duplicates the 416 Rigby performance but in a much smaller ctg case. When you crank the ambient temp up to 120 and touch one off. The probably 55-60,000 psi swells the brass to fit the chamber like it was made there, hence extraction becomes difficult at best. After a couple rapid fire shots you may seize a case in there, pull off the rim, or break the extractor (pick one). The old Nitro things developing 4-5000 foot pounds all extract like butter due to low pressure for the size of the shell. Can't get no free lunch. :uhoh:
 
I'm going to ask questions that will probably show up my lack of experience/knowledge - but stupid question is the unasked one right?

Ok. One - from another article on that site that Preacherman linked to it states that when getting through the massive muscles on a lion's chest velocity is very important. So does someone in the group have something he can fire lots of times without shattering his shoulder or risking developing a flinch at a bad moment? Say a semi in .308?

Two - do leverguns exist in any of these cartridges (after all they are used in Alaska) and do people use them in Africa?
 
The comments about the .416 Rem are interesting. I believe it's supposed to put a 400 grain bullet out at around 2400 ft/sec. Now, go back a couple of decades and you'll see that a wildcat cartridge, called, IIRC, the .416 Taylor, was supposed to do the same. The problem is, the .416 Taylor was based on the .458 Win Mag case, which is noticeably SHORTER than the .416 Rem.

So . . . this wildcat with LESS capacity gave equal velocity! Maybe there's a reason it never caught on . . .

BTW, the old Brit cartridges were intentionally loaded to low pressures for two reasons. First, many were chambered in double rifles, which simply don't have the strength of a good bolt action. Secondly, they were usually loaded with some variation of cordite, noted for MAJOR sensitivity to temperature. In some cases, the Brits had a "tropical load" with a smaller powder charge, meant for use in hot conditions. More often, they just underloaded the cartridge, figuring it was "big enough" to still do the job in colder conditions, but should the weather turn hot, the underload provided enough "headroom" so that rising pressures still wouldn't exceed the limits of the gun or cartridge case. (The .416 Rigby is a good example. Huge case, and "only" 2400 ft/sec or so.)

Today's powders are much less sensitive (but not entirely immune) to temperature variations than cordite, and Hodgdon claims to be engineering their "Extreme" line of powders to have even less sensitivity.

Getting back to the .416 Rem . . . if it's loaded to max at say 70-80 deg, one wonders how it will perform at an ambient 100 degrees . . . and how hot will the actual CARTRIDGE be, after a couple hours in direct African sun?
 
HankB: No doubt, no doubt. However, the modern Double Rifle ala H&H et al comes std in .458 Magnum. The problem is not so much in the strength of the action but rather is a limitation in the cartridge, i.e., trying to put too much of a good thing into too small of a package. Your comments are right on but the old tune about doubles aren't strong enough is no longer true if it ever was. The big weakness I would say is lack of primary extraction power, perhaps, although I am not an engineer. when you break that sucker you want those to shake right out or fly out if it has ejectors. Not pull a jackknife out and try to pry it out while something else may be trying to get your attention. My $0.02.
 
Big G . . . can't really argue much with you, other than to say that some people don't believe DB guns should use anything other than a rimmed case. Rigby's (?) has had spring loaded extractors for rimless cases for quite a while, but not everyone trusts them. And the camming action of, say, a Mauser bolt action will reputedly "break loose" a stuck case more easily than the opening motion of a DB gun, particularly one with spring-loaded ejectors. "Strength" doesn't mean solely "Will the gun blow up?"

Since I'm unlikely to own a DB rifle - I mean, I could buy several very nice bolt actions for even the cost of a "cheap" double - I just have to go by what I've read. I'll eagerly listen to the advice of someone who has first hand experience with using a DB rifle as well as a bolt under adverse conditions.
 
You can go right to H&H's website and check for yourself. Their Grand Wazoo Premier Majestic Royale grade double comes std in .458 Win Mag. I was flabbergasted myself as I thought the .465, .470 etc were still the kings but don't think so. BTW, be prepared for sticker shock unless $100,000 + is in your budget. :eek: You have to remember Kynoch and Eley are long defunct and the old Nitro Express ctgs have not been produced in years.

HankB, although I have as much practical experience as you do drawing down on Jumbo or other exotic creatures in a life and death confrontation :D my belief is not having a stuck cartridge in the first place is the way to go. Loading a cartridge to the last SAAMI PSI is not always the wisest thing to do. The British seem to always have recognized that while the American companies keep pushing the envelope. Regards, bud! :)
 
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One - from another article on that site that Preacherman linked to it states that when getting through the massive muscles on a lion's chest velocity is very important. So does someone in the group have something he can fire lots of times without shattering his shoulder or risking developing a flinch at a bad moment? Say a semi in .308?
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In general, a bolt action is about as good as it gets (some will hold out for a double rifle, but those are for people richer than I!) Semi-autos, especially under the conditions they face in Africa, are less reliable than bolt actions (remember, they are mostly used in the military, where the rest of the squad can take up the slack when one man's rifle packs up.)

Many a lion has been killed with a .303 Brit. The .30-06 is even better -- with modern Hi Energy or Lite Magnum loadings and premium bullets, the modern .30-06 is right up there with the .300 magnum (which is also a good choice.)

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Two - do leverguns exist in any of these cartridges (after all they are used in Alaska) and do people use them in Africa?
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Yes. Teddy Roosevelt used a Model 95 Winchester in .405 Winchester and called it "Lion Medicine." The Browning BLR is avaliable in .30-06 and magnum loadings. There has even been a minor resurgance of the '95 Winchester and the .405 cartridge. A Marlin 336 in .45-70, in a modern loading would be fine.
 
...my belief is not having a stuck cartridge in the first place is the way to go. Loading a cartridge to the last SAAMI PSI is not always the wisest thing to do.
AMEN TO THAT!

For each of my African safaris, I followed a philosphy that if my big game rifles (a .30/06 and a .375 H&H) actually produced the ballistics that the factories advertise - but rarely deliver over a chronograph, when fired from a regular rifle - it was cause to be happy. So a 180 at a bit over 2700 for my '06 and a 300 at right about 2550 for my .375 were just fine. I worked the loads up in the summer, and have never had the hint of a problem.

BTW, several years ago I attended the SCI convention and I guess I came to the H&H booth while the guys were in a good mood - they let me pick up and shoulder one of their .700 H&H DB rifles. It weighed something near 20 pounds, and cost $5000 a pound, or so. Even if I had the money to spend on something like this (I don't!) this is just too heavy for me to lug around all day and then shoot accurately. (But I did buy ONE cartridge for my collection.)
Kynoch and Eley are long defunct and the old Nitro Express ctgs have not been produced in years.
Federal is producing .470 NE ammo - I've seen it for about $140 a box - and various small custom makers are putting out the others. Cases and reloading components are also available. Not cheap, but if you can spend $100,000 on a rifle, what's 10 bucks a round for the ammo? :rolleyes:
 
I just want to say I thoroughly enjoy these discourses with fellow enthusiasts. :D

St. Johns: Semis are illegal for hunting in Africa, to best of my knowledge.

Gewehr98: Bud, mea culpa, I should have said YMMV with my dogmatic statement that Kynoch was defunct. I really thought it was. Dang memory! BTW, hold on to your hat when you check the prices of dem ole NRs. :what: My last recollection was that some place in Kenya had bought up all the old stock and had years worth but that was the last of it. :uhoh:

HankB: $140 a box (.470) makes .458 @ $60 or 70 a box seem right affordable. And .375 for $30/40 a downright steal! :evil:
 
Everybody knows the best dangerous game firearms in Africa are the Russian PK and PKM machineguns.
 
Since I'm unlikely to own a DB rifle - I mean, I could buy several very nice bolt actions for even the cost of a "cheap" double - I just have to go by what I've read. I'll eagerly listen to the advice of someone who has first hand experience with using a DB rifle as well as a bolt under adverse conditions.

Well ok it's two years later but here goes.

Never never never never use a high pressure non rimmed cartridge in a double rifle meant for dangerous game. Ask any of the serious double users and makers and they'll all tell you the same. It may not happen today it may not happen tomorrow it may not even happen next week but you will have a failure to extract at some point with a non rimmed high pressure round in a double.

I've used both Mauser style bolt guns and doubles in hunting DG and they both have their advantages and their disadvantages. But hands down in a serious SHTF situation at close range the double is king. their is nothing faster handling nothing faster pointing and nothing faster for two shots and in some cases four shots on the planet. For everything else the edge goes to a quality mauser style bolt gun.

You won't find a serious in the know African DG double gun user with a .458 win or similar cartridge in a double. That is quite simply a stupid human trick. Doubles sold in those calibers tend to go to wanna be's who have no idea what they are doing or rifle collectors who have no intention of hunting with said rifle. There are of course a few exceptions to every rule. I tend to see the odd .375H&H in a double in use from time to time.

What never fails to amaze me however, is that some of the most experienced DG hunters on the planet with literally thousands of head of DG under their belts will warn against using certain types of rifles (push feeds and M-700's in particular) on DG yet some tourist hunter is always there to defend their pet rifle simply based on the fact that they own one. It's kind of like a battered woman defending the honor of her abusive husband.;)

PS

When people talk about the expense of a double they invariably mention a Royal or Dominan grade H&H double in the 6 figure dollar class. There are quite a few very useable solids doubles out there for a mere tenth of that price.:D

That is kind of like saying "those sports cars sure are expensive" and then immediately going to the Ferrari web sight to find prices. There are many good sports cars outside of the Ferrari just like there are many good doubles that don't have Holland & Holland carved on their sides.

As far as ammo goes the .470NE is probably the cheapest of all of the NE rounds to feed. that was until this year when Ruger announced the #1 in a .450-400NE and Hornandy will be loading ammo for it commercially.

I reload for my .470 and have the cost "down' to about 4-5 dollars a round. with hunting ammo and about 3 dollars a round for plinkers.
 
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