Marine Corps rifle qulaification

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Jack Package

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So I just graduated boot camp and was rather surprised about the rifle qual. I wasn't expecting us to use the RCO on our M16's. Now I am use to shooting old world rifles (Mausers, Springfields, M1s ect) so before I went to boot I was expecting us to use iron sights. I wish we would have used iron sights because it would have made earning that expert badge a lot more challenging. Anyway was just wandering what you guys though and what any other Devil Dogs though about it. Any responses would be appreciated.
 
The RCO, or the ACOG as it is called in the Army, has been the standard weapon sight for the Marine Corps for close to a decade or so. Since they don't require batteries, it is not common for "new" Marines to qualify with iron sights. And often unneeded to.

The Army does things a bit differently. The common sight is an Aimpoint CompM4 aka CCO. A 3MOA red dot. On most weapons a backup iron sight is mounted behind the red dot in case of battery failure or breakage. Most line combat units will zero their iron sights but most REMF/POG units won't even know what they are or how to use them.

In my military experience, I have noticed that optics whether red dot or magnified make better shooters better. For the first years of my military career I qualified on iron sights, and scored sharpshooter on the Army scale. Usually right around the 30 out of 40 mark. When I switched to the red dot my scores went up to 36 or better out of 40.
 
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I was not a Devil Dog (my older 2 brothers were, 1940-1952), but in the U.S. Army in 1964 (Ft.Polk), we used iron sights at 400 to 600 yards at "Maggie's Drawers" targets with the wonderful M14 (7.62X51 NATO). I believe iron is the way to go.

I qualified at 187, Sharpshooter, and felt quite happy doing it! Everybody in my barracks (50) from Oklahoma (12) shot expert ,212 or better.

It seems all Okies have a rifle put in the cradle at birth. :cool: I believe it.
 
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When I went through Army OSUT it was M16s with iron sights and a short familiarization fire with the M68s. At my units it's been M4s with a mix of ACOGs, 68s and Eotechs, all of which have backup iron sights. The majority of rifles are equipped with ACOGs. As far as I know the Army still does basic training qualification using iron sights and M4s.
 
Well my boot camp days were a few months ago. This would be me on the 500 meter line in the prone, yes, I qualified shooting left handed. That was May 1969. We trained with the M14 and I came to love that rifle. I was shooting many years before the Marine Corps, the Marine Corps simply taught me the correct way to shoot. :)

Qual%20Day.png

The rifle range was a full two week adventure for us. The first week was "snapping in" which amounted to sitting in 100 degree heat and dry firing at tiny black dots on white barrels in sand pits. :) The second week was live fire practice leading to qualification day. We fired at 200 meters offhand, 300 meters sitting and kneeling rapid fire with magazine changes and 500 meters slow fire in the prone position. Sights were sights and they were all the same, standard peep sights. :)

Was talking to a friend of mine's nephew about 3 1/2 years ago. He just graduated boot. I was blown away about the rifles and being able to use RCO / ACOG. He made it sound like they had the option on qual day?

I ended up in Vietnam in '72 and was handed a M16. Wonderful as I had never handled a M16. :) All of this long before optics.

All in all I spent almost 10 years in the Corps followed by another 10 years DoD. No shortage of Marines in the family. :)

So exactly what is the range all about today? Distances? Targets? Total range time?

Today I still very much enjoy shooting my M1A and my Colt SP1 rifles.

Ron
 
If I had to qualify again

I'd probably need a ten power on the 100 yard range.
 
Well my boot camp days were a few months ago. This would be me on the 500 meter line in the prone, yes, I qualified shooting left handed. That was May 1969. We trained with the M14 and I came to love that rifle. I was shooting many years before the Marine Corps, the Marine Corps simply taught me the correct way to shoot. :)

Qual%20Day.png

The rifle range was a full two week adventure for us. The first week was "snapping in" which amounted to sitting in 100 degree heat and dry firing at tiny black dots on white barrels in sand pits. :) The second week was live fire practice leading to qualification day. We fired at 200 meters offhand, 300 meters sitting and kneeling rapid fire with magazine changes and 500 meters slow fire in the prone position. Sights were sights and they were all the same, standard peep sights. :)

Was talking to a friend of mine's nephew about 3 1/2 years ago. He just graduated boot. I was blown away about the rifles and being able to use RCO / ACOG. He made it sound like they had the option on qual day?

I ended up in Vietnam in '72 and was handed a M16. Wonderful as I had never handled a M16. :) All of this long before optics.

All in all I spent almost 10 years in the Corps followed by another 10 years DoD. No shortage of Marines in the family. :)

So exactly what is the range all about today? Distances? Targets? Total range time?

Today I still very much enjoy shooting my M1A and my Colt SP1 rifles.

Ron
Glad to hear from a former Devil Dog, we did grass week and that was as you did snap in at those damn barrels. Rifle qual was the next and that was again a whole week. It 200 sitting, kneeling, and standing at the able targets 5 rounds each. Then the 200 rapid fire sitting, 10 rounds down range at the Dog target in 60 seconds. Then we did 5 rounds in the sitting at 300 then 300 rapid in the prone again 10 rounds 60 seconds. Then the hum dinger 500 at the b mod targets in prone so I don't think its changed that much from your day.
 
Glad to hear from a former Devil Dog, we did grass week and that was as you did snap in at those damn barrels. Rifle qual was the next and that was again a whole week. It 200 sitting, kneeling, and standing at the able targets 5 rounds each. Then the 200 rapid fire sitting, 10 rounds down range at the Dog target in 60 seconds. Then we did 5 rounds in the sitting at 300 then 300 rapid in the prone again 10 rounds 60 seconds. Then the hum dinger 500 at the b mod targets in prone so I don't think its changed that much from your day.
Thanks for sharing that. I was wondering if the 2 weeks had changed. The course of fire sounds similar too and was pleased they still shoot at the 500.

With boot camp done hope you get a sweet duty station and remember, the two best duty stations in the world are the one you just left and the one you are going to. :)

Semper Fi
Ron
 
Good job! I wouldn't sweat "cheating" with the ACOG. Optics are the standard now and we (the military) aren't going to go back, only forward to better optics, perhaps ones with integrated LRF and reticle that adjusts POA to POI based on range, angle and atmospheric conditions.

On an iron sight M16A2, I would typically shoot 35-39/40 on the Army qual. On the M4 with irons, 34-38. M4 with the M68 CCO RDS, 35-40, almost always expert which is 36 or above. The red dot is good for 1-3 extra hits (for me) over iron sights on the M4.

In the Army we still qual with just irons on occasion.
 
There is always resistance to change, especially when that change happens with tried-and-true methodology and equipment.

But the fact of the matter is that change WILL occur. Questions which should be considered are "will this change do the job", "will this change be better", "will this change be as reliable or more reliable", etc.

It was once pointed out in one of the many leadership courses that I took over my 20 years in the Navy that the purpose of the Navy is to "put ordinance on target". To that end, every person in the Navy has some role which supports that purpose, from the lowest to the highest.

Does the RCO (and ACOG) do this as well or better than iron sights? If so, then it's supporting the Marine's ability to put ordinance on target.

Is it robust and reliable? It seems to be. Pretty cool, as well, that is has no batteries to fail. I didn't know this.

Will it improve the Marine's survivability, so that he may live to fight another battle some day? Anything which improves his ability to put more ordinance on target most certainly does.

Given equal training between combatants, is this something you would NOT want our troops to have? Conversely, is this something you would rather NOT see those equally trained enemy troops have?
 
Reload Ron - Hey; thanks for the memories.. I was a few months behind you at Parris Island. Qualified Oct. 10, 1969... I only knew that because I still have that little green rifle marksmanship and data book (remember that?) . It even has the serial number of the M-14 I qualified with listed there, ( 33116 ). I'm a bit hazy on the maker but I'm pretty sure it was one of those M-14 receivers made by TRW. And yes; I also have an M1A, (built on a Smith Industries receiver ) and I'm sure you understand why it has a special place in my safe.
 
So are those currently in the military still trained on iron sights at all? Though today's optics are quite robust I'd think knowing BUIS would be helpful just in case.
 
So are those currently in the military still trained on iron sights at all? Though today's optics are quite robust I'd think knowing BUIS would be helpful just in case.
In the combat arms side of the Army I'm from - yes, and every rifle was supposed to have a flip up iron sight regardless of what optic was mounted.
 
tdstout said:
Not quite at birth, I didn't get my first rifle until I was 5.

Well then, Kindergarten, but close enough! :D I loved all my Oklahoma buddies who were all Enlisted Reserves (ER) from the Enid area. I still think of them after 50 long years and hope they had happy, prosperous lives.

When an Oklahoman is your friend, he is a friend for life. :)
 
Didn't know that recruits were using the RCO now. We were still using M-16A2's when I went through boot camp in 08.

I find it interesting that you think using the RCO made it too easy to qualify since I qualified 242 and 246 with iron sights before my fist time qualifying with an RCO. I had to use what we called an expert waiver my first time with the RCO as I only shot a 221. Next time I did actually shoot expert with a 236 but never broke 240 again on table one.

Now table two that's a whole different story. The RCO definitely made it easier.

Kind of funny considering I was a Designated Marksman and my issue rifle used a scope and I had no problem with it.
 
In 1967 at Ft. Ord CA they were teaching us something called "quick kill". We started with shooting BB guns at tossed in the air metal discs the size of a silver dollar. The idea was not to aim, but look over the barrel with both eyes open and shoot. Got to the point where we could hit the discs pretty regularly. So they then decreased the size of the discs. We still could hit them.

When we started shooting that way live fire with an M-14, it was at regular targets, but same idea. Throw rifle to shoulder, look over barrel at target with both eyes open, and shoot. Worked very well, and very fast.

Shooting at longer distances was normal marksmanship training, I qualified expert with the M-14. I still remember my peep sight battle sight zero, 4-3.

I also remember running with a 10lb M-14 at high port for miles at a time. Wish I could do that now. :rolleyes:
 
In 1967 at Ft. Ord CA they were teaching us something called "quick kill". We started with shooting BB guns at tossed in the air metal discs the size of a silver dollar. The idea was not to aim, but look over the barrel with both eyes open and shoot. Got to the point where we could hit the discs pretty regularly. So they then decreased the size of the discs. We still could hit them.

When we started shooting that way live fire with an M-14, it was at regular targets, but same idea. Throw rifle to shoulder, look over barrel at target with both eyes open, and shoot. Worked very well, and very fast.

That sounds unfortunately familiar. You wouldn't happen to know if they were doing that same thing at Fort Leonard Wood about that time frame would you? (Or Benning or Bragg?) Dad did the same thing to me with a CO2 pistol that he had purposely taken the front sight off of just for that reason. It didn't work for me but I've seen my sister hit sparrows in the air with the same pistol.
 
Reload Ron - Hey; thanks for the memories.. I was a few months behind you at Parris Island. Qualified Oct. 10, 1969... I only knew that because I still have that little green rifle marksmanship and data book (remember that?) . It even has the serial number of the M-14 I qualified with listed there, ( 33116 ). I'm a bit hazy on the maker but I'm pretty sure it was one of those M-14 receivers made by TRW. And yes; I also have an M1A, (built on a Smith Industries receiver ) and I'm sure you understand why it has a special place in my safe.
You're welcome. However, a true confession, even though I registered for the draft and got my physical in NY when I went in the Marines I enlisted (with draft notice in hand :) ) in Ohio. There were 10 Marines that left that day for boot. Five of us for San Diego and five for Parris Island. I was a Hollywood Marine.

A note on the TRW manufactured M14, I had one and the irony is decades later I ended up working in the same TRW plant where the M14 was manufactured. The test rifle range was still intact when I started at that plant.

Ron
 
When I did boot back in 2000 we qualified with irons. Before that I had never really shot much. I hunted but with a scope and only a couple times. So it was pretty much the Marines that taught me to shoot and I got sharpshooter, I was happy with it, but I really wanted expert.
 
So it was pretty much the Marines that taught me to shoot and I got sharpshooter, I was happy with it, but I really wanted expert.

No worries. Most got not to shoot at all. And a lot regret it now. I proudly framed my Sharpshooter badge and 82nd AB patch. My grandchildren think it's cool.

Thanks for your service, You will never,ever, regret it. :)
 
A - congrats on graduating Devil Dog.

B - it only makes sense to test you on the same gear you'll fight with.

There would be no point in testing someone with one system, then sending them to war with another.

Teach everyone how to use iron sights...but test them on the gear they'll fight with.
 
HGM22 said:
So are those currently in the military still trained on iron sights at all? Though today's optics are quite robust I'd think knowing BUIS would be helpful just in case.

I mentioned this in my earlier post. Most of the combat MOS qualify or at the very least zero their iron sights. The most common and fastest way to do this is to zero the CompM4, and then adjust the iron sights onto the red dot. With a few rounds on the range to confirm the zero.

In the combat arms side of the Army I'm from - yes, and every rifle was supposed to have a flip up iron sight regardless of what optic was mounted.

It makes me laugh when I see those flip up back up irons on rifles with the ACOG mounted. The CCO needs to be mounted a little bit farther forward than the ACOG, which allows the backups to be used. On every rifle I have seen with an ACOG it was directly over the backups so they can't be used, the optic would have to be removed first. By the time it is pointed out, most guys have already zeroed and "dummy corded" their optic and are too lazy to undo that to zero the iron sights.

It seems all Okies have a rifle put in the cradle at birth. I believe it.

Not quite. I had to teach a few guys from the 45th how to shoot better. And I never picked up my first M16 until college :D
 
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