Marines new rifle - rant

[4v50 Gary]

The rifle in dispute has been field tested (that means some were used to zap some insurgents)and considering the barrel is less than 20" long excluding its suppressor and it can still shoot sub-MOA at 1,000 yards, that's quite amazing. Another advantage of the gun is that at 13 lbs, its much lighter than other rifles. Portability comes to mind and that's a definite plus.

Every weapon has a special purpose and I wouldn't want that rifle for house clearing or to stop a frontal assault at less than 300 yards. Give me an AR for that.

Precision Shooting magazine has an article about the XM3.Precision Shooting on-line article on the XM3

 

[ALS]

My .308 IBA Chandler weights in at 17 lbs with bi-pod and five rounds in the magazine. The XM-3 weighing in at 13 lbs is 3/4 the weight of the normal Sniper rifle is a huge advantage. Ask the guy that has to carry it around in a war zone.

 

[Gordon]

Ooh rah, a butt chewing from Pat Rogers.Can't wait to receive one in person!

 

[LeonCarr]

What exactly is the difference between the XM3 and the M40A3 besides the shorter barrel? What makes it so much better that it is worth 20 grand?

 

[4v50 Gary]

I agree with you ALS on the weight. I've watched as stocks became bulkier and heavier and while they're great, stable and steady, the trade off is carrying them. Five pounds is a lot of weight that could be water, food, batteries, ammo or other gear. Even without substituting extra stuff, five pounds less is easier on the soldier. He's s a soldier, not a pack animal (despite the load of the average infantryman since the days of the Roman Legion being over 50 lbs).

LeonCarr - click on the link in my previous post and read the article about the rifle. A lot of good things about the XM3.

 

[Fatelvis]

Newton, I agree with you. There is no way a tiny bit of extra accuracy, loss of weapon weight, etc., is worth all that extra $.

 

[Gator]

Reducing the rifle's weight by almost five pounds while increasing accuracy to produce sub MOA at 1000 yards sound like huge advancements to me. And when you consider how few such rifles will ever be in the inventory the added cost really doesn't amount to much. The cost of a single F-22 engine would probably cover the difference and then some.

 

[LittleLebowski]

There's no huge advancement here, it's all COTS parts. Iron Brigade is easily charging double for this rifle and robbing the Marine Corps.

 

[ALS]

What they are charging the Marines is a lot less than the general public pays.
The so called experts on building rifles have no idea what it really costs in man hours to put one of these guns together. You just don't slap a few parts together and say ta daa. Second, IBA rifles have to pass the accuracy test. If the gun doesn't measure up, the gun is totally disassembled and the process starts all over until the gun does shoot at the desired accuracy level.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Nothing wrong with the XM-3 nor is thier anything wrong with the Mk11 so whay change to the M110?

SR-25, Mk 11, and M110 are all basically the same thing. Big Army does not get weapons development/support from Crane, so I suppose when they adopted it, it needed an M# rather than a Mark # (the mods they made are so minor I don't think the changes warrant the different nomenclature on technical merits). I guess the ones we have in my unit are officially Mk 11's, but no one ever calls them "Mark 11s" as they are SR-25s (same way an SPR is not a Mk-12 in my little corner of the army).

 

[LittleLebowski]

Stolen from another forum (Tactical at snipershide)

Hey I got an idea. How about some one call the companies up that make the stuff on this rifle and price it out

Get Remington 700 action and trigger. Seems 300.00 to 350.00 is price for this

Send to Hart to true action and bbl. Most will do this for 600.00- 700.00 including bbl

Send to any 2112 to bed 150.00-200.00

Add Scope mount 125.00

Add Badger floor metal 265.00- 350.00 depending on if you get the Detachable keep you alive version (no one plans on having to shoot more than one round but poop happens)

Purchase the McMillan stock. Pretty basic here 450.00 or so. (Also can we pick a stock that works with all inventory optics because the comb on this one is too low) If you want a folder get the AICS as its the only one thats field worthy.

Then get either a McCann or USO NVD mount. Hey they might even be on same optical plane and that would be a hell of an idea. Never saw a Optical device that did not see better through center of lense. While at it tell them its a "MARS Mount"

Let see what that costs to put together.

Then add in Scope and NVD.


While I am at it I challenge this 18.5" bbl wonder rifle to shoot at 1000 yards with issue ammo, in wind and at 32-40 degrees air temp. Same shooter with M40A3 under same conditions. Watch how bad it gets beat.

If you want a shorter bbl for urban ops why not use the MK11 or M110's where when you are about to get over run you have some options for the bad guys to think about, not a fire five rounds and die weapon! Hell I would take a 5.56 SPR over this any day!

If we can save the USMC money let it go to the Scout Snipers.

Or how about buy the parts and have the 2112s put it together and no one makes a freakin dime but original manufactures. No sub contractors!

The 2112s are good enough. Hell they are the best. Last year at US NRA National F TR Clas Championships I did very well with Black Hills Factory ammo and a GAP Built M40A3. The ex 2112 that built it is Eric Reid. Even won at 1000 yards with this. Did not see one other bbl shorter than mine.

 

[LittleLebowski]

This seems pretty cut and dry, same source.


As to 1000 yard shooting. The 18.5" will get there but only some one who knows very little or has an agenda will tell you its as good as a 25" bbl M40A3 or 300WM at 1000 yards. That 150 fps is huge difference between the two bbl lengths and once again how does it group lauching around 2500 fps, in cold weather, at sea level?

Give you and idea
175s at sea level and 70 air temp run around 2670 and get to 1000 yards with 36.5 moa from 100 yard zero. Drop velocity down to 2600 and 32 air temp and now you need 39.75 moa from 100 yard zero. Velocity remaining is way above sound barrier.

Now start at 2500 at 70 degress and you need 42.5 moa to get to 1000. Thats roughly 60" more drop than same round from 25" bbl. under same conditions. Also the velocity for the short bbl here is roughly the speed of sound and that means iffy for accuracy under these conditions.

Now drop to 2470fps and you need 46.5 moa to get to 1000 yards, or over 6 moa more drop than same round in 25" M40A3 bbl, under same conditions.

The thing here is remember the velocity drops when temp drops so everything gets wrose.

To even debate this is like having to prove the world is round to a new born. Its just stupid!

Now does anyone have an idea what happens to wind drift when bullet speed slows?

Now shall we talk 308 18.5" versus a 300WM?

 

[Macpherson]

Not to suggest that placing more weight on our soldiers is a good thing, but I don't see why weight savings is an army requirement for a sniper weapon. Maybe I'm mistaken on this, but snipers aren't foot soldiers humping around on patrols all day, they occupy a perch and stay there for long periods. Weight is less of an issue for a bolt action rifle fired off a bipod than for an combat infantryman's rifle. Increased accuracy is definitely a good thing, but decreased weight for increased cost doesn't sell it for me.

 

[Funderb]

who would ever pay that much for a rifle?
There is no use to sped that kind of money, when you could spend 1/4 of it and get an equivalent rifle.

 

[Harley Quinn]

who would ever pay that much for a rifle?

Not that expensive compared to other stuff the Gov has been paying for, these private contractors are now and have been for years screwing the Gov. which relates= to the people of the US....Nothing new

 

[ALS]

Little Lebowski you should get into building rifles for a living. Bill Gates needs the competition on being the richest person on the Earth. Oh you forgot about the 20K to 50K grand minimum you will have to put out for supplies and machinery such as lathes. I love people who have never made a payroll or owned a business love to tell everyone how businesses are ripping them off.
That profit pays for all those pesky expenses such as inventory, transportation, shipping costs from suppliers, rent or mortgage cost, liability and health insurance insurance on the premises, payroll for employees, payroll taxes, inventory needed to kept on hand, electric, gas, phone, local taxes on the property as well as mercantile taxes, income taxes and any loans that are out standing. Then after all those expenses are met then the owner gets a paycheck.
Do you have any idea what the mechanic or technician at your local car dealer has invested in his tool box? Try $30,000 to $50,000 or more.

 

[Fatelvis]

I understand ALS, but $20,000 for 1 rifle? Please.

 

[Funderb]

that makes sense, ALS, but you shouldn't have to buy the lathe to have the rifle.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Is the $20k quoted price for the rifle alone or for the entire system (including AN/PVS-22, optics, suppressor, etc.)?

 

[ALS]

The night-vision runs over $9000 and the Suppressor runs around $1,200. Then you have to pay the Government $200 for the tax stamp for the right to own the suppresser. The NF scope alone is $1200 to $1500.

Specs and price list.
http://www.deathfromafar.com/htm/iba_weaponsys_xm3.html

 

[SoonerSP101]

Talk about your sniper rifles. The 50 ain't got nothing on this puppy!

http://www.gunweek.com/2006/feature0420.html

“...the .416 Barrett...400 grain solid brass boattail spitzer...”

“... .416 Barrett muzzle velocity is right at 3,250fps and the 400-grain spitzer is still supersonic at 2,500 yards.”

 

[ALS]

The 416 is a nice gun with great ballistics but the thought of paying $4.70 to $5.10 per round makes the gun somewhat expensive to shoot.
With the accuracy that gun has right out of the box it may be worth it.

 

[inherentical]

We'll see.

 

[Zak Smith]

For the cost of the XM3, they should have bought an off-the-shelf AI-AW with the barrel length they wanted and spent the extra on a better scope (S&B).

The U.S. keeps hacking together bolt-action siper systems based on really old technology instead of using or building a new system from the ground up (like many of the European sniper rifles including the AI and TRG).

-z

 

[Gator]

Maybe I'm mistaken on this, but snipers aren't foot soldiers humping around on patrols all day, they occupy a perch and stay there for long periods.

HAH! Speaking from the Marine perspective, how do you think they get there? Marine scout snipers hump all day with the grunts, then hump some more to do their jobs.

The night-vision runs over $9000 and the Suppressor runs around $1,200. Then you have to pay the Government $200 for the tax stamp for the right to own the suppresser. The NF scope alone is $1200 to $1500.

Yep. The $18,000 price quoted (for civilians) includes all the accessories. The rifle alone is $8295, which is not out of line for a high end custom bolt action. Check out other makers, like David Miller for example.