Martial Artist vs Firearm

[Ozendorph]

BG points a gun at you at contact distance and you attempt to disarm him before he can squeeze the trigger. Anyone can do it. Action is faster than reaction.

He who hesitates is lost . It is easy to underestimate the amount of time it takes for sensory information to enter your brain, process, and then the resulting action command to be sent from your brain to the muscle charged with contracting your index finger.

There are three "tricks" to a successful disarm (and this applies to any contest of reflexes).

1. Don't telegraph your move. Any sort of "set" or pre-cursor to your movement will give away your intention.

2. Economy of motion. You have to take the shortest route possible to the weapon. That means no wind-up, and no wasted motion.

3. Move your whole body as a single unit. If only your hand moves to reach for the gun, you're going to catch a bullet. As you reach to control the weapon, you have to close your centerline (making yourself a smaller target and putting more meat and bone between the muzzle and your vital organs) and move clear of the line of fire.

Bottom line is, you've got a pretty good chance of being shot regardless of what you do...hopefully it'll be and exremity hit or a glancing shot, and you'll be able to keep your wits about you. If you make your play and take a bullet to the shoulder, you'd better stay on the attack...make it your soul purpose to control the weapon and bite that jerk's nose off. Odds are the gunman isn't going to give you a second chance if you back off and call "time-out".

 

[Soap]

You guys are talking about a simple gun pointed at you scenario or one where someone is fully committed to a normal drawstroke. Now if you will, try the same scenario as thus and see how it comes out:

-MA guy and Gun Guy (GG) are about 3' apart, GG has a holstered Airsoft
-GG take the first initiative and step aggressively to MA's off side
-Kick the knee or below, strike with left hand into throat or a rising chin jab at the same time or very shortly after the strike, draw Airsoft into a one-handed retention position. Alternatively one could just run into the other guy hip-to-hip to throw MA off balance while drawing. Also, if you get into a clinch do anything to keep one arm free and draw (hopefully under their line of sight at that point). If you want, scream at the top of your lungs at MA while smashing towards him. At this point I never take a traditional two handed stance.

Try it next time you're playing Airsoft. I still want to see someone knock my gun away at close quarters effectively enough such that I cannot get it into play again. If you train H2H separate from shooting, you will find A vs. B scenarios running in your head. If you train with them in combination, fighting is fighting, regardless of tools. At that point, you don't think gun vs. empty hand when you're reacting to close quarters threats. YMMV.

 

[bukijin]

Using a handgun is a martial art.

Are you asking whether it is better to be armed or unarmed in a confrontation ? Being unarmed in a situation where your enemy is armed is an appalling failure of judgment. Any technique of trying to disarm someone is desperation at best - doesn't mean that you shouldn't train it - it might save your life, but the odds heavily favor the armed person.

 

[Edmond]

What I was told was that the MA guy doesn't have to make the GG drop the gun. He just has to control either the weapon itself or the trigger finger.

If you've ever had anyone "lock" your finger in the trigger guard, it will break your will to fight. Trust me, I've had it demonstrated on me before, though the guy was a certified master instructor many times over. Could the average Joe do that? Sure, being lucky is sometimes better than being good.

 

[Soap]

Using a handgun is a martial art.

Bingo!

If you've ever had anyone "lock" your finger in the trigger guard, it will break your will to fight. Trust me, I've had it demonstrated on me before, though the guy was a certified master instructor many times over.

When you are willingly subject to a demonstration, you lack one key element, you are not fighting for your life. The effect of that is twofold. One, you would not fight aggressively to get him to stop as soon as he made any motion towards you. Two, he wouldn't have the extreme adrenalin dump which could make his hands less accurate and controlled. Heck, even try a scenario where the rule of the game is that you have to fire an Airsoft pellet into him at all costs. I imagine the results will be different.

 

[GeneC]

Listen, all y'all're missing one simple key thing, it all depends on whether the MA knows you're going for/ drawn your weapon. Fact is, you're not really justified in going for your weapon just because you're confronted by a MA. Btw, how did you know he was a MA and how in the heck did you get yourself in this predicament anyway?

 

[gryphon]

A lot of people who take karate or kung fu or any other style of martial art have a tendency to get their asses kicked in a real fight because:

a) They are taught how to fight in competition and not a street fight
b) Are trained how to do the moves, but spend little time in practical application
c) Know how to fight, but since the have never been in a real fight, get nervous, lock up and, thus punched in the face for good measure.

Most likely, anyone determined to hurt you, will. The only thing that saves most is that they want to hurt the the other person more.

 

[ShaiVong]

Oh it didn't actually happen to me. Its one of those threads thats kind of hard to remember what it started at.

It began I think with that women on the left coast that had some painting of evily smiling GI's torturing iraqi men or whatever. It was offensive and she had it in the front window of some art gallery i think.

It got her spit on and glass broken and all sorts of things (I don't feel bad for her). At one point somebody knocked on the door, and simply socked her in the face when she opened it.

This is a local university web board. When I read the story, I simply laughed at her plight which has unhinged several leftist groups about her freedom of speech being supressed.

After making fun of her prediciment, I simply stated that the freedom of speech does not and should not insulate you from the reaction to your action. It's impossible for anybody to protect you from that. Even if there had been a cop standing right next to her, all he could do is arrest the guy AFTER she had been punched, and likely could not prevent the suprise punch itself.

Well this made some people mad; and one 'gentleman' asserted that maybe somebody should punch me in the face for being such a jerk.

I responded that anyone anywhere is more than welcome to attempt to assault me, or speak to me in person about what I post to the internet, because I do not hide behind (false) annoninimity. Last semester I even posted my class schedule after some woman got rip-roaring mad at me (she never showed).

Because we all post under our real names, I simply stated that I live right in town and I'm in the phone book. If he wants to come over to my house and punch my lights out, that he and anyone else is welcome to try. That is freedom of expression and I do not discourage it... The caveat being that if you come into my home intending violence, I'll probably shoot you at least once.

Through much other twisting and thread splitting, it became a 'Guns wont help you at your front door vs a martial artist. Ever. Any time.' type of deal. And here we are!

 

[Island Beretta]

Well, if one is going to pull a stunt like what a so-called friend did to me recently..then maybe the MA over the firearm...

The outcome depend on so many different variables..distance, skill level, mindset, confidence, that it is hard to call.. Generally however a good handgunner will defeat a good martial artist.. We advise handgun holders to learn gunfighting as being able to shoot a pistol accurately is a small part of the whole protection game..

 

[iapetus]

Daniel Flory

Try it next time you're playing Airsoft. I still want to see someone knock my gun away at close quarters effectively enough such that I cannot get it into play again.

You're seem to be assuming all the MA can do is "try to knock the gun away".

I've done knife defences in my MA class (no guns though), and the most improtant thing we were taught (apart from getting your body out of the line of attack) is to grab their kife arm with both hands, and hang on no matter what. (At least until you have twisted their hand so the drop the knife / broken their elbow / thrown them on the ground / kicked them enough to make them stop).

I don't know enough about reaction speeds of grabbing vs pulling a trigger, and wouldn't want to try it for real (except with a toy gun), but if (big if) the MA can grab the gun hand, and twist themselves and their attacker's arm so that they are out of the firing line, they could have a chance. Especially if the GG doesn't know how to fight unarmed.

 

[Blackhawk 6]

If you've ever had anyone "lock" your finger in the trigger guard, it will break your will to fight.

I am supposed to be worried about a broken finger taking me out of the fight? What kind of fights are you getting into?

I've done knife defences in my MA class (no guns though), and the most improtant thing we were taught (apart from getting your body out of the line of attack) is to grab their kife arm with both hands, and hang on no matter what. (At least until you have twisted their hand so the drop the knife / broken their elbow / thrown them on the ground / kicked them enough to make them stop).

Works good until I change hands... In my experience, 1) It is hard to get your hands on a committed attacker with a knife; 2) Joint manipulation to "encourage" someone to drop something is not easy; 3) Elbows are easier to break by accident than on purpose; 4) Throws work less than optimally in real fights.

As has been pointed out previously, reality in the dojo is not reality in the street.( though there is some crossover.)

 

[iapetus]

Blackhawk 6

quote:I've done knife defences in my MA class (no guns though), and the most improtant thing we were taught (apart from getting your body out of the line of attack) is to grab their kife arm with both hands, and hang on no matter what. (At least until you have twisted their hand so the drop the knife / broken their elbow / thrown them on the ground / kicked them enough to make them stop).



Works good until I change hands... In my experience, 1) It is hard to get your hands on a committed attacker with a knife; 2) Joint manipulation to "encourage" someone to drop something is not easy; 3) Elbows are easier to break by accident than on purpose; 4) Throws work less than optimally in real fights.

As has been pointed out previously, reality in the dojo is not reality in the street.( though there is some crossover.)

True, but hopefully when I grabbed you (well, not you personally ), I will have been able to step far enough so you are off balance and leaning in such a way that Ichanging hands won't be too easy. Especially if I then twist in the other direction so you fall, and kick you as you go down.

But yes, it is easier in the dojo, so I hope never to have to try.

Although my sensei is a copper, and ex-army (paratrooper, infantry officer, and - I think - close-quarter battle instructor), so he should know what he's talking about.

 

[Powderman]

For all of the reasons stated above, that is why all prudent people who carry firearms know well the 21 foot rule. It's quite simple.

If you see or perceive a threat that calls for the application of deadly force, (other than firearm), draw and have your firearm ready and aimed.

If the assailant breaks the 21 foot line (seven yards from you), shoot. End of story.

For the record, I have trained with various martial arts for a long time. I'm not Bruce Lee--or even close--but I think I can do well for myself.

I also grew up in the center of one of the most violent crime infested places on the planet, and I will tell you this:

When the rubber meets the road, all of the fancy footwork or maneuvering in the world will NOT keep you from getting hurt if someone is determined to do so. I have seen seasoned and well trained martial artists kick some serious butt on the street--but that was the exception. More often than not, the martial artist relied too much on their training, and not enough on their instincts. They got schooled.

Here's the bottom line:

If you are ever at the business end of a pointed firearm and you are not shooting back, you have a serious problem.

Not meaning to sound like a bad a**, but here's the challenge: I challenge anyone--ANYONE--to take a firearm from me if I have it drawn, under real life conditions.

Flame away, if you wish.

 

[Soap]

iapetus-

I'm saying this in complete smugness because I learned that some things are not as they seem in training. Your training helps, there is no doubt. But in your knife defense class, how many times did you end up with chalk all over your sensitive and vital body part? I'm not a knife expert by any means, but if I train with someone unarmed and me with my A/F trainer...they are going to have chalk all over them no matter if they grab onto me with both hands or not. Once again, try a scenario where one person has one of those cheapie Airsofts by Daisy. Tell the person with the gun that they are supposed to keep retention of the gun and fire the Airsoft round into your body (wear a paintball mask or eye protection). Let them know they can do anything barring something that could permanently injure you to prevent you from taking the gun out of play.

 

[iapetus]

Daniel Flory
iapetus-

I'm saying this in complete smugness because I learned that some things are not as they seem in training. Your training helps, there is no doubt. But in your knife defense class, how many times did you end up with chalk all over your sensitive and vital body part?

Enough time to know that a) I need more practice, and b) I hope never to be in such a situation for real.

 

[Soap]

I've never felt more mortal than doing armed vs. unarmed drills.

 

[VeT|Us]

Beeing a green-belt in Shorin-Ryu Karate and Phase 2 / youth-instructor in Kali Sikaran / IKAEF , graduated by World Champion Johan Skålberg, Things I have learned:

If in a knifefight, pull out your own, bigger and meaner knife. You WILL get cut. Attitude is everything. It is recomended to cut YOURSELF first , so that you 1. Seem totally insane and a bigger threat than you may be, and 2. Have seen blood.

Many people freeze when they get slashed and see blood, better to have this out of the way before the actual fight. It is recomended,
but I dont know of many who are crazy enough to do it. I sure wouldnt.

If someone pulled a gun on me, well thats kinda different. If Im close enough, say grappling-range, then I'll attack if I have to / cant run. If its 15m between us, I have no chanse. I'll just have to run, and Im not as fast as bullets, no matter how hard I try
If I had some sort of weapon, with some range, I would stand a better chanse. Everything is a weapon in those situations.
It's hard for me to say how I'll react before I actually have to,
but Im pretty sure I could disarm him if it was very short range.

----

I discussed this with my teacher, and I didnt agree when he said that everything could be used for selfdefence. Well, BAD move by me.
We stepped into the ring, I had a knife with no edge. He had nothing.
If I could "cut" him, I won, and I WANTED to beat my teacher.
Well, he took off his jacket and totally handed me my ass on a plate.

He had a jacket, and I had a knife. I lost, bigtime. He used it as a whip, with the zipper on the end. I couldnt get within 10 feet without getting my face all mangled by his "improvised whip", and besides that he was way faster than me. I rushed him, he disarmed me.

Attitude is everything.
This sounds like something I'll suggest we train for.

 

[Powderman]

Respectfully, sir, I disagree.

If in a knifefight, pull out your own, bigger and meaner knife. You WILL get cut. Attitude is everything. It is recomended to cut YOURSELF first , so that you 1. Seem totally insane and a bigger threat than you may be, and 2. Have seen blood.

Wrong.

If in a knife fight, draw your handgun and when the assailant crosses the 21 foot line, align your front sight center of mass and press the trigger twice in quick succession. Don't stand still after doing so; move and create space. If your first two rounds did not cause the attacker to stop what they are doing, then align your front sight on the head of the attacker and press the trigger once more.

End of story. You don't have to cut yourself, and the only blood will be the attacker's. Also, I guarantee that the muzzle of a Colt .45 ACP pistol, held in readiness by a determined person, will seem a much bigger threat than any edged weapon.

I dont know of many who are crazy enough to do it. I sure wouldnt.

Fully agreed with on this point.

I discussed this with my teacher, and I didnt agree when he said that everything could be used for selfdefence. Well, BAD move by me.

True.

He had a jacket, and I had a knife. I lost, bigtime. He used it as a whip, with the zipper on the end. I couldnt get within 10 feet without getting my face all mangled by his "improvised whip", and besides that he was way faster than me. I rushed him, he disarmed me.

My friend, I guarantee that if you try to "whip" someone with your jacket for real, you will find it stuffed quickly in your nether regions, without benefit of lubricant.

There are two reasons why you could not get past the jacket, and it has nothing to do with effectiveness.

One is the inherent respect for your sifu, or sensei.

Another is the fact that you did NOT want to get hurt at that time, and were not ready to work past the injury.

Yes, a heavy piece of clothing wielded in this fashion can be a viable defense for a short edged weapon. However, a suitable handgun of sufficient caliber is much better, and you don't have to worry about whipping anything but that trigger.

Attitude is everything.

And, that is the crux and the unmistakeable truth of the whole subject.

The person who is determined to walk away will do so.

Again, no flame intended.

 

[ShaiVong]

Powderman; I think he was referring to a knife fight in which you both have only edged weapons... Not to pulling a knife if you have a gun.

 

[VeT|Us]

Well, ofcourse not. Beeing a Norwegian, I cant carry a firearm, much less for protection. If I could, then I would. I cant even carry a knife, that is punishable my 6 months jailtime, but I'll rather go to jail alive than 6 feet under, dead.

The point with the jacket was NOT to promothe a simple jacket as the new übertacticaldeathray-weapon of choise for all Mall Ninjas, It was simply an exampel of me, thinking I was prepared, and getting my ass handed to me by something as simple as that object.
What Im stating is: A pen can be used as a weapon, key's can be used as a weapon, cellphone, whatnot. For us who can not carry firearms, knowing how to use anything as an improvised weapon is just plain smart.

For you who can carry firearms, it's something completely different.
Im not advocating anything, Im just telling my own experiences.

 

[Soap]

Do you stab yourself with the pen or keys before getting into the fight too?

 

[GeneC]

Well then he changed the 'what if'. No, it's definitely a gun, the reference to a knife was irrelevent. However, I concur with Powderman and Vet/US, if you use the the 21' rule, you definitely have a chance against Jet Li, but he said "within striking disatnce", so I'd have to say, if he didn't knock you out, you might have a chance to draw your weapon and dispatch 2 or 3 rounds into his CoM and maybe one thru the neck at contact distance, if you have the will to survive.

 

[.45&TKD]

I voted "yeah" because I'm a martial artist with a gun, so I've got both angles covered.

 

[Edmond]

I can't resist:

So in a gun fight, I would shoot myself first so I'm not shocked if I got shot?

 

[carpettbaggerr]

I am supposed to be worried about a broken finger taking me out of the fight?

Well, maybe not out of the fight, but I doubt you'll be pulling a trigger with a compound fracture of your index finger.