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Massad Ayoob

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by M203Sniper, Nov 15, 2008.

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  1. M203Sniper

    M203Sniper member

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    Spoke in Tombstone about the JFK shooting, debunking the conspiracy theories around the JFK shooting. I missed it because of work, nice article though.

    The Sierra Vista Herald Article

    :cool:
     
  2. Shung

    Shung Member

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    Anyway.. Anyone who actually did shoot a Carcano in his liftime knows that the official version is just impossible.. Now, I don't pretend to know what actually happened, but the official version.. nah...
     
  3. vis-à-vis

    vis-à-vis Member

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    I think "Landslide Lyndon" had him popped. I don't think Oswald was the shooter. I'll let Ayoob slide on this one...
     
  4. MikePGS

    MikePGS Member

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    JFK was killed by....

    Lee Harvey Oswald. Its been proven many times now. Vincent Bugliosi went so far as to write a thousand page book on the subject (he originally thought it was a conspiracy) Penn and Teller had a nice segment about how a head very well can snap back toward the source of the shot, and I think its the discovery channel that has a new special coming out that uses modern blood spatter evidence, a forensic dummy and some sharp shooters that once again proves that the shots came from the sixth story window.
     
  5. SaxonPig

    SaxonPig Member

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    I don't see how less than four bullets were fired. If you count the known impact points, you have four, maybe five bullets. A bullet is known to have hit the sidewalk; one hit the windshield of the limo; one hit Kennedy in the back (and also hit Connolly if you buy that theory which I don't and neither did Connolly who always maintained he was not hit by the same bullet); and the infamous head shot. The official version is that Oswald fired three rounds that did all the damage. I don't believe that is possible.

    I think the mob had him hit. He and his brother Robert, the attorney general, were going after the mob big time after the organized crime leaders made a deal with their crooked, gangster father to steal the election for John in 1960. The mob doesn't like it when you double cross them. The mob had motive and the capability to murder the president. They would also be able to keep it hushed up.

    I have been to Dealy Plaza and I have studied the evidence. With all due respect to Ayoob, I don't see how one man could have done it with three shots from that crappy rifle.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2008
  6. qwert65

    qwert65 Member

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    I agree almost completly with saxon pig as regards to motive also what happened to kennedy's brain?
     
  7. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    Maybe Mulder and Scully can find out for us.
     
  8. Shung

    Shung Member

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    There is no way you can fire a Carcano so accurately, so quickly with such a crappy rifle mechanism..

    We've tried many times.. 3 rounds in 5 seconds is nearly impossible to do, even if you dont aim your shots.
     
  9. 6_gunner

    6_gunner Member

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    I hate to see this turn into a conspiracy theory thread, but I have to put in my $.02. I've always found it very difficult to believe that one man with a crappy bolt action rifle could fire that many accurate shots in so little time. Oswald may indeed have shot Kennedy, but I've always suspected that there was at least another shooter. The Mob theory sounds credible. Oswald may have been one of several shooters, or he may have simply been a fall guy, but there seems to be more to the story than most people are willing to acknowledge. The fact that Oswald was killed off so quickly strikes me as awfully suspicious.
     
  10. Threeband

    Threeband Member

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    Except the shooting has been re-enacted several times, to my knowledge. Identical rifle, high angle, moving target, same time limit.

    No, I haven't done it, but I did live within walking distance (OK, 3-4 miles) of Dealy Plaza for a number of years...

    Ironically, if that pathetic loser Oswald hadn't martyred JFK, he would be a nearly forgotten one-term hack to this day. No "Camalot", no "Kennedy myth"; my generation would have been perhaps a little bit less warped.
     
  11. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Moderator Note: Focus the discussion or this one pretty much goes away after the OP.
     
  12. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    I once heard John Connally say on a Sunday news program that he didn't believe that anyone could "fire a bolt action rifle that fast". He then withdrew the comment and refused to say any more on the subject.


    I was never able to manipulate a Carcano very fast and I doubted the Commission's conclusions.

    But: remember that the bolt was already closed at the time of the first shot. I've seen a re-enactment that now has me convinced that the official version is probably true.

    I have enough faith in Ayoob to put it to rest.
     
  13. Threeband

    Threeband Member

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    I've seen two re-enactments that demonstrated the feasibility.

    -----------------------------------
     
  14. fineredmist

    fineredmist Member

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    The Kennedy motorcade approached the Book Depository and then turned driving away from the building which poses a question for me. If you were presented with two targets, one moving toward you, exposing a chest and head and one moving away exposing a shoulder and head why would you take the second? Part two of the question, the first option would also give you a greater window for follow up shots where the latter would not, so why wait till the car was going away from you? This has never made sense to me especially when Oswald was supposidly "a highly trained marksman".
     
  15. Shung

    Shung Member

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  16. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    As if he would know what bullets did or did not hit Kennedy given he wasn't even facing Kennedy at the time.
     
  17. Just Jim

    Just Jim Member

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    Even if someone has a good name it doesn't mean they know the truth. It is all speculation, some by those with exspearience in shootings and some who have read the reports on shootings.

    When the government writes a report it is always to protect government. Making a conclusion after reading a government report is just plain stupid at best when you know the facts are not real in the report.

    jj

    Edited to say How long has government been telling you Fannie and Freddie were in good shape etc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2008
  18. slide

    slide Member

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    I've never seen any. The trick isn't working the bolt and firing but re-acquiring the moving target using a glass sight when the target is through tree branches.

    I've never seen that even tried. To me, it seals the deal. The feat is impossible. I'll only revise my opinion when I see a REAL enactment - not just some trained Marine working a bolt 3 times & getting off 3 unaimed shots.
     
  19. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    The shooting was not that fast. Remember, the clock STARTS when the first shot is fired, so you are firing two more shots in 6 to 9 seconds (depending on the interpretation of the Zapruder film). And the first shot was only 60 yards, the third was ~80 yards. Practically point-blank range, with a 4x scope, from a rest, and one of those was a clean miss.

    Here's an older guy doing it, without a whole lot of practice:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBeMaEwwvwU

    And the rifle can be fired a lot faster than that:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoqB1_RWW5w&feature=related

    If you look around on Youtube, there are several videos of Carcano owners making hits on balloons and such at 60-80 yards within the allotted time.
     
  20. Japle

    Japle Member

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    It's shown in the film. Blasted out the holes in the skull.

    When I was in the Air Force in the late '70, we set up a moving "car" that we'd rigged up with cardboard silhouettes. We shot from a safety officer tower at the base range. Not as high as a 6th story window, but it was the best we could do. One of the NCOs had the same model rifle that Oswold used and surplus ammo. We all used open sights, since the scope on the original rifle (we'd heard) wasn't sighted in.

    Four of us tried it. We were all good to expert shots. We all managed it in the time allowed.

    Years later it was pointed out that Oswold fired the rifle from his left shoulder, using his left hand on the trigger and working the bolt with his right hand. He never took his hand off the bolt, so he could shoot pretty fast without disturbing his position. This info came from his neighbors. Oswold had made them very nervous, sitting on his porch with the rifle resting on the railing and practicing for hours. They'd called the cops, but in Dallas there was nothing illegal about dry-firing a rifle on your own porch.
     
  21. slide

    slide Member

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    Not while the balloons are moving and have to be hit sighting through the branches of a tree. Have YOU ever tried acquiring a moving target through tree branches? Try and and you'll see the utter b.s. that is those youtube demos.
     
  22. Shung

    Shung Member

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  23. qwert65

    qwert65 Member

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    according to wiki(so whatever that is worth) Carlos Hatchcock stated that he tried the shot and couldnt do it
     
  24. slide

    slide Member

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    It flat cannot be done. By anybody including Hathcock. It's as silly as saying that Oswald flew to the moon to get his ammo.
     
  25. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    The Discovery Channel documentary had a shooter recreate the shots with a carcano and it was possible to do within the timeframe. On some of the attempts, ammo and gun problems did keep it from working out-but at least one of the attempts worked.
     
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