Massad Ayoob

[1911 guy]

I've always enjoyed reading "The Ayoob Files" in "American Handgunner". There's always stuff to think about when you've got the luxury of time and hindsight. Lots of lessons to be learned. I'm also quite sure that the presentation given by Mr. Ayoob was flawless, according to the Warren Commission report. Too bad it's wrong.

 

[Claude Clay]

JFK is still dead?

 

[Treo]

I have no problem believing that our government is crooked enough to have participated in the Kennedy assasination, my problem is believing that they're compatent enough to cover it up.

Maybe the Illuminati did it because Kennedy refused to go along W/ the "New World Order" that's as plausible as any other therory I've ever heard.

Either way we have two options the assasination happened exactly the way history say it did, or there was some grand conspiracy that has been able to cover their tracks for 45 years. If the latter is the case I tend to think that if they managed to cover it up this long we'll never know the truth.

 

[slide]

No grand conspiracy. Just a few guys who were in on it and the grossly incompetent government investigators who think a Marine working a bolt quickly is a demonstration of the actual event.

Don't confuse incompetence with conspiracy.

 

[coloradokevin]

It flat cannot be done. By anybody including Hathcock. It's as silly as saying that Oswald flew to the moon to get his ammo.

Personally, I hate to speak of this situation in absolute terms. I don't really know what happened, but I personally wouldn't say that it is impossible. Simply saying that something just can't be done removes the element of luck, too.

Maybe it couldn't be done 9 out of 10 times, but what if it *could* be done once?

 

[slide]

It has been tried 10 times and succeeded 0. If Hathcock couldn't do it, I say it's impossible for Oswald to have done it.

If you are uncomfortable with bold statements than how about this: It's a 100:1 shot that Oswald managed to pull it off. That means its a 99:100 shot that the official story is wrong.

Choose your odds and live with that.

 

[Pilot]

I don't think we'll ever know for sure. What I do know is that Oliver Stone's film, while entertaining, was totally false.

 

[MikePGS]

Whats the source of the alleged Hathcock comment? The man once shot a bicyle frame from 2500 yards while it was moving. I find it hard to believe that he would have any difficulty with shooting another moving target from a much closer distance. Furthermore Oswald wasn't the poor shot people seem to think he was. He scored "marksman" twice while in the Marines. And the idea of it taking two bullets to hit the governor is also false, since the angle they were sitting it all but guaranteed it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62gvoKyODu4 (NSFW Warning: Language that may be offensive)

 

[SaxonPig]

DNS- Connally said he was hit as he turned in reaction to the first shot. He clearly felt he was not hit by the same bullet that went through Kennedy.

5.6 seconds for 3 shots. That's the official story. Yes, it has been duplicated under perfect conditions by expert shooters but they didn't score the same direct hits as they say Oswald did under less than perfect conditions by a shooter hardly an expert.

 

[slide]

Gee, guys, the point is that Oswald was supposed to re-acquire the moving target twice in those 6 seconds. That's the tough part - not moving the bolt.

 

[danweasel]

Wow, I thought that that guy was supposed to be a genius! Hmmmm....

 

[Chuck Dye]

I recall a CBS, perhaps 60 Minutes, segment in which a tower was built to dimensions representing the Book Repository window, and a wooden track configured to carry targets through the same relative movements and ranges as Kennedy and Connally traveled. If memory serves, CBS found that even novices managed the shots easily with same rifle and scope.

If my search yields links, I'll post them.

If your search beats me to them, post them, please.

 

[Mrs. Armoredman]

Darn I missed him again. There have been so many experts trying to prove who did what when I got kinda confussed. I watched specials on JFK's death they all think they are right.

 

[bdickens]

Nobody seems to take into consideration the possibiliy of sheer dumb luck. Marksmanship and inherent accuracy (or lack thereof) of the rifle in question aside, as long as the stars just happen to line up just right, a blind man can hit a moving target.

 

[FoMoGo]

Furthermore Oswald wasn't the poor shot people seem to think he was. He scored "marksman" twice while in the Marines.

One thing to remember, "Marksman" is the lowest qualifying rating you can get on the range in the Corps.


Jim

 

[MikePGS]

According to the Warren Report, "Oswald was trained in the use of the M-1 rifle. His practice scores were not very good, but when his company fired for record on December 21, he scored 212, 2 points above the score necessary to qualify as a "sharpshooter" on a marksman/sharpshooter/expert scale."

http://www.fiftiesweb.com/kennedy/lee-harvey-oswald.htm
I actually looked into it a bit further since I thought he had qualified higher but i'm not really sure about ranks in regards to that sort of thing.

 

[qwert65]

he did score that. the same report states that a year later he barley made marksman

 

[benEzra]

It is true that a Marksman badge is the lowest badge the USMC gives, but they mean it when they call it "Marksman". A USMC-designated Marksman is not a dolt who can't hit a barn from the inside; the Marines emphasize rifle marksmanship more than any other branch, and take quite a bit of pride in it; it's not a consolation prize or an attendance award. Oswald was 100% a loser, but incompetent he was not.

Anyone whom the US Marine Corps qualifies as a "Marksman" is certainly good enough to hit a 8" target 1 for 3 at 80 yards with a 4x scope from a benchrest, no? And the third hit was barely a hit (almost missed high and right). I'm sure he practiced quite a bit with that rifle, both live and dry firing; I suspect most failed reenactments of the shot involve shooters who have NOT practiced for weeks with the rifle beforehand.

And reacquiring a target moving directly away from the shooter at 11 mph in 2 or 3 seconds using a low-power scope in full daylight against an asphalt background is NOT hard. Plenty of hunters also manage to reacquire and shoot followup shots at animals in two or three seconds, using much harder kicking calibers against much more difficult backgrounds. Shoot, I am not a great rifle shot and I can recover from recoil and transition from one IPSC 5-zone to another in 1/2 to 3/4 of a second, and an IPSC 5-zone seen through a 1x optic at 15 yards is comparable in apparent size to a head at 80 yards seen through a 4x scope.

I do not personally believe that Oswald was a lone wolf, but I do believe that his being the lone shooter is not inconsistent with 3 shots in the time given.

 

[MikePGS]

To tie this into another thread, In Full Metal Jacket R Lee Emery goes on to say how great the Marines are at shooting, citing both Charles Whitman and Lee Harvey Oswald


As to whether or not someone tricked Oswald into doing it or not, that's an entirely different matter as far as I'm concerned. All I'm saying is that it's almost if not 100 % that Lee Harvey Oswald fired three shots from the book depository window and ended up killing JFK.

 

[Kleanbore]

I'm no longer uncomfortable with the difficulty of making the shots from the window with the Carcano. That has taken some doing--primarily, my seeing of it done on television. A marine I know who is now a lawyer criticized my earlier suspicion.

Some other evidentiary stories still bother me but they are not gun related. But here's something that is:

I'm almost positive that I remember hearing before Oswald was apprehended that a man or couple had been seen walking on a bridge or railroad overpass carrying an Argentine Mauser rifle. I think that Cronkite was the reporter.

To the novice, an 1891 Mauser looks a lot like a Carcano.

Maybe there was a second gunman who never angaged.

Does anyone else remember anything like that?

 

[Tommygunn]

Gerald Posner wrote CASE CLOSED about the Kennedy assassination. In it he details how it was done and why it was Oswald. He demonstrates the Carcano could have been used, and in fact WAS used.
The Warren Commission said Oswald had 5.6 seconds, but Posner demonstrates he actually had about 11 seconds, and that there were three shots fired. The first one is free in so far as timing, ie; THAT'S where the stopwatch starts.

IF Kennedy had been shot from the Grassy Knoll (another conspiracy) then he would NOT have been hit in the front of the head, as those who propose this theory insist, he'd have been hit in the right side of his head.



At one time I did believe the conspiracy theories .... but after a lot of thinkig and asking questions I found they all relied on unfounded assertions and guesses and some poor thinking.
So ... 45 years later ... it was Lee Oswald.

 

[benEzra]

As to whether or not someone tricked Oswald into doing it or not, that's an entirely different matter as far as I'm concerned. All I'm saying is that it's almost if not 100 % that Lee Harvey Oswald fired three shots from the book depository window and ended up killing JFK.

That's my thinking. I have no idea who fed Oswald his intel, or what their motives were, or if there were co-conspirators. I do know that he was assassinated soon after his apprehension in a way that suggests it was to keep him from talking.

After his apprehension, Oswald said "I am just the patsy," implying there were others involved in some way. I wonder if we'll ever figure out what he meant.

My wife's parents think the mob was involved; my parents think Johnson was involved in some way. Who knows.

 

[Tommygunn]

Ha! Love that "The Onion" article there. He he he....

As for Oswald saying "I am just the Patsy," I think it was just him saying he was the victim of a frame-up; how many people who've been arrested have claimed they were framed? A lot.
Oh well .... no one can ask him now, for sure!

 

[MikePGS]

:Chuckles: I love that Onion headline, along with the picture of Oswald getting shot that makes it look like he's in a rock band



The more I read about Oswald, the more it seems that he was pretty messed up, confused whatever. Even if he didn't shoot JFK (which he did) he still murdered a police officer who stopped him to question him. That being said, the investigation was really sloppy, so much so that there was some debate as to whether or not he would've been convicted even if he was tried.

 

[Kind of Blued]

If Mas shows up he's gonna be pissed.