Massad Ayoob

[melikesguns]

nevermind, too many experts here for me to comment!!

 

[ilbob]

Being in my 20's, I was nowhere near this point in history. But it does interest me. One thing that just hit me while reading this thread is that some have mentioned Kennedy was strapped into 2 corsets and was virtually unable to move. Who suggested this precaution to Kennedy? Or was it insisted upon rather than suggested? A sitting target who is unable to move...Hmmm, does that seem convenient to anyone else?

JFK was the victim of a disease called Addison's. Look it up on the web. He was in almost constant pain, and was probably drugged up most of the time, just to be able to function. Sitting in a limo like that must have been very uncomfortable for him. My guess is that whatever could be done to make him more comfortable without being real obvious was done, just as the true nature of FDR's disability was well hidden while in office.

 

[ilbob]

MASSAD AYOOB, IMHO has gotten to big for his britches.

This from a guy with four posts.

BTW, it should be "too", not "to".

 

[screechjet1]

Good point. 250,000 deer will be shot in the head while riding in a car at 25 mph. In fact, nobody has yet demonstrated that they can dupe the shots Oswald was supposed to have made. Yeah, they work the bolt and fire, but they don't HIT.

Also this does NOT mean a huge consipiracy. It's not a binary choice between sole Oswald and a huge consipracy involving the CIA and Cuba. It can be simply 2 or 3 guys. It's not a choice between 1 guy and 1,000 guys.

I've been to Daley Plaza, and the opinion that I came away with was that the shoot was much EASIER than many assume...the angle from the School Book Depository to the street that JFK was one made it an almost straight-away shot...the angles were perfect. Even the slight downslope of the street is coincident with the elevation of the building.

The shot wasn't a crossing shot...it was straight-away. JFK wasn't a duck in a shooting gallery...he was easier.

Now, this of course begs the question, did Oswald come up with this perfect sniper position on his own, basically through dumb luck? I find this unlikely, as Oswald was universally known as not the sharpest tack. I'm pretty confident that Oswald was the lone shooter, but he didn't place himself into position.

 

[Mac7mac]

I was in the 9th grade in November 1963, and can remember the announcement over the school P.A. system like it was yesterday; first reports said JFK had been "shot through the temples". It was a deeply somber day when his death was confirmed later in the afternoon.

While visiting Dallas in 1995, I went to the Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza, in the former Texas School Book Depository Building, which now belongs to Dallas County.
The lower five floors are used for county government offices; the entire sixth floor is a museum which "chronicles the assassination and legacy (of JFK)". The area of the window from which the shots were fired (and yes, I am making that assumption) is glassed in, but you can look down at Dealey Plaza from the window next to it. When I did so, the thought that entered my mind was, "like ducks in a barrel..."
Given the opportunity, you might wish to visit the museum yourself. It was a deeply moving experience.
It's also worthwhile to visit the museum's website (www.jfk.org).
Among other things, the Zapruder film is shown on it.

And my honest opinion: I have trained under Mas Ayoob, and I respect his decades of experience and expertise, which go far beyond "bowling pins".

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

My gun-related .02, with questions:

1. Questions: The rifle was scoped, but was it scoped in such a way as to allow use of the iron sights also? Has it been proven that the scope was NOT properly sighted in?

2. Comment: People refer to the Carcano as junk or "crap". It is not. While it may not be as smooth and quick as an Enfield, the Italian gov't/military spent a lot of time and money at the time developing what they thought was the best weapon design for a soldier to fire as many rounds accuracy, as quickly as possible. It's a milsurp, and like all milsurps, it's strongly built, reliable, and has been shown, it can be fired and cycled quite quickly. Aiming is another matter of course (particularly with scope). 6 seconds is enough time. 8 seconds is more than enough time. 11 seconds is way more than enough time, it would seem to me, to get off 3 aimed shots. As far as accuracy goes, different examples of milsurps are different - some of the "good" ones shoot badly, and some of the not-as-good ones will shoot amazingly well, even with military ammo. This may have been a real shooter of a gun, or Oswald may just have been lucky. But it took him 3 shots, so he wasn't THAT good or THAT lucky.

3. Contrary to what has been espoused here, I should think that it is SLOWER (if anything) to fire from a left hand stance with right hand on the bolt, than it is shooting from a right hand position. Sure, it is true that your right hand doesn't have to move from the trigger up to the bolt to start cycling (the hand is already there on the bolt), but the awkwardness of the ergonomics involved in holding the rifle steady with left hand solidly enough to keep the rifle from simply twisting rather than having the bolt move, is going to way more than overcome the extremely slight time advantage of not having to move the hand a couple of inches from the trigger to the bolt handle. Now in truth, BOTH styles can be very, VERY fast with practice. This Oswald character was probably (evidently) quite fast, but a right handed shooter can be lightning fast as well, so the difference in reality between the two types, both well-practiced, is going to be measured in milliseconds and centiseconds, not even tenths of a second. So in the grand scheme of say, 8 seconds (800 centiseconds, 8,000 milliseconds), this is a negligible amount. I mean 3 shots means only TWO cycles of the bolt. Suppose that the difference is 4 centiseconds (4/100ths). Times two is 8 centiseconds - out of 800, that only accounts for 1% of the time - difference between two styles, mind you - not total cycling time.

4. Lastly, just because "Oswald did it", doesn't even begin to usurp the possibility of one or more conspiracies to make the act happen, and cover it up. There's some pretty interesting/credible stuff out there to support the idea that it was a South American mafioso type who employed Oswald, with said South American guy being hired by the French mafia, at the behest of some of the American mafia (the American mafia supposedly used the prominent French guy to attenuate the trail from them a bit). The gov't wasn't involved in any direct way - gov't figures/agencies aren't able to perform that kind of cover up for that long of a time period - no way. Plus you've got the convenient quick silencing of the killer by Ruby which is highly suspicious.

 

[mgregg85]

Seems like tons of internet commandos malign the carcano rifle, yet I read on surplusrifle.com that it works just fine. A recent shotgun news article on the carcano was pretty positive as well. I can't say for myself because I have never handled or fired one.

 

[threefeathers]

I have 2 of them but both of mine are 7.65 instead of 6.5.
My son is left eye dominant but right handed. After Mas left the house Jimmy took two rifles, one of the Carcanos without a scope and a Mauser 98 with a 4X scope. He shoots left handed so working the bolt with his right hand was really easy and he got very fast with it in a few minutes. (he was 82nd though, B-1-505) and was raised with guns. One of the things Mas brought out was that in testimony Marina Oswald gave was that her husband spent hours in the kitchen practicing dry fire. He had the rifle on his LEFT shoulder and practiced working the bolt for hours. As much as we don't want to admit that the Knight of Camelot was felled by a serf we really do have to come to that conclusion.
That does not take any conspiracy theory away. Mas explained the how, not the why.
He also said that Kennedy had bonked 32 women his years in the White house. Finding the why is up to someone else, but the how is well explained.

 

[screechjet1]

Seems like tons of internet commandos malign the carcano rifle, yet I read on surplusrifle.com that it works just fine. A recent shotgun news article on the carcano was pretty positive as well. I can't say for myself because I have never handled or fired one.

I've actually fired about three hundred rounds or so out of 6.5 Carcanos, and found that they are, like 6.5 Arisakas, a highly serviceable rifle, especially inside 200 meters.

I was shooting iron sighted rifles, and I am no means an expert marksman. I was able to keep 5 rounds in a 6-8 inch bullseye.

Oswald was both lucky and prepared that day.

ETA: One thing that the 6.5 Carcano had going for it was mild recoil. That was useful on 22 NOV.

 

[The Wiry Irishman]

Contrary to what has been espoused here, I should think that it is SLOWER (if anything) to fire from a left hand stance with right hand on the bolt, than it is shooting from a right hand position.

An old friend of mine (and THR member) is left-handed and always works his bolt guns like that. Even offhand he's blindingly fast. It's almost like being a lefty has given him an unfair advantage.