Mauser K98 Magazine Conversion

[jmar]

I'm going to be building a Mauser sporter and I want to convert it to take detachable box mags. Does anyone have a recommendation on which mags to use? For price reasons I'm thinking about going with AR10 mags since I'm also converting it to .308. I'm going to probably be building my own bottom metal but I'd much prefer finding a mag that fits in the exiting box mag.

 

[boom boom]

I'm going to be building a Mauser sporter and I want to convert it to take detachable box mags. Does anyone have a recommendation on which mags to use? For price reasons I'm thinking about going with AR10 mags since I'm also converting it to .308. I'm going to probably be building my own bottom metal but I'd much prefer finding a mag that fits in the exiting box mag.

Military Mauser receivers and most non-military receivers have the feeding rails built into the receiver specific to the cartridge that it was originally barrelled. To convert to a box mag such as AR 10 would be a far piece of gunsmithing to do so reliably as those feeding rails would have to be ground off, the feeding ramp would have to be resculpted, etc. It would be an issue to get it to feed reliably. You might want to see if you can obtain some copies of WWI era "Trench Magazines" that replace the floor plate of the Mauser receiver. Sarco and Numrich had replica models. https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/50230
Do not know if the DuMoulin or the Parker-Hale receivers.

Here is an old thread from Sniper Central about it http://www.sniperforums.com/forum/diy/7022-mauser-detachable-magazine.html

Usual procedure on Mausers sporters is to install an hinged floor plate to allow easy removal of rounds.

 

[rachjake]

Check out CDI Precision.

 

[Varminterror]

AR-10 mags aren't going to be your best route. It's an option, but not a great one. M14/M1a mags would be the better route. Feeding will be more reliable, once a skilled smith makes it such, from an AICS mag, but you'll spend 4-5 times more per mag on these.

I'm going to probably be building my own bottom metal

Best one yet...

I'd much prefer finding a mag that fits in the exiting box mag.

This is gibberish. You're not going to be running a DBM inside the mag box of a Mauser. This is yet another indicator of a fundamental lack of understanding of firearm function and design, let alone riflesmithing.

 

[jmar]

AR-10 mags aren't going to be your best route. It's an option, but not a great one. M14/M1a mags would be the better route. Feeding will be more reliable, once a skilled smith makes it such, from an AICS mag, but you'll spend 4-5 times more per mag on these.



Best one yet...



This is gibberish. You're not going to be running a DBM inside the mag box of a Mauser. This is yet another indicator of a fundamental lack of understanding of firearm function and design, let alone riflesmithing.

You seem to know a lot about me, please tell me more about my skill levels when you have never seen any of my work and know nothing of my skill set. I think you have a fundamental lack of reading comprehension if you think by that I meant I'd use a "DBM" with the existing box mag. I was talking about putting in a magazine block or sleeve so the mag is snug and modifying the mag box to have a catch, which would convert the standard Mausers to accept any mag that fits in the internal dimensions. And maybe building my own bottom metal is laughable to you just because it's beyond your skill set not mine. It only involves sheet metal a dremel and a welder, I've done much more intensive work.

 

[Varminterror]

I think you have a fundamental lack of reading comprehension if you think by that I meant I'd use a "DBM" with the existing box mag.

Am I the one with comprehension issues?

I'd much prefer finding a mag that fits in the exiting box mag.

Generally when someone says they "prefer finding a mag that fits in the existing box mag," I would consider they're looking to find a mag which fits in the existing box mag... As in, I read and understood exactly what you typed...

And maybe building my own bottom metal is laughable to you just because it's beyond your skill set not mine. It only involves sheet metal a dremel and a welder

Your last here exactly illustrates my point... Call up Seekins, PTG, CDI, or any number of manufacturers of bottom metal, ask them how they build REAL bottom metal, then you'll understand my criticism. Hell, just holding one in your hand will tell you it's not made with sheet metal, nor assembled with a dremel and a welder... I HAVE produced my own bottom metal, precision milled from billet stock, not welded and dremel'd from sheet stock, and only when aftermarket options were not available (+2 drop belly magazine for Ruger M77 MkII's). As a career product development engineer and a moonlight gunsmith, having managed and contracted custom machine fabrication shops for over 15yrs to produce custom parts, I can tell you, your statement quoted here about producing your own bottom metal is absolutely laughable...

Does this look like sheet metal which was welded and dremel'd?



The dimensional problem you're facing is substantial. What you're describing sounds like putting a shoe over a sock because you haven't handled the gear and haven't done this kind of work. What you would know if you HAD done this kind of work is the details you describe are like putting two shoes on the same foot. The new magazine isn't going to fit inside of the old magazine. Any of these DBM conversions require upsizing the bottom metal inlet, and a complete replacement of the bottom metal. You're looking at a mag box with something on the order of 0.9" inside width at the rear, and a mag box which is ~1.1" at the rear... You're also facing the adaptation of the mag release, which being on the side of the AR-10 mags either requires conversion of your mags to a rear release or a pretty extensive inlet and engineering of a side release button. Because the K98 bottom metal is a one piece design which includes the integral mag box (unlike the rem 700, Ruger 77, Savage, Win 70), you really can't simply remove the original mag box and slip a new box through the original bottom metal, as removing the mag box effectively cuts the bottom metal in half. With a lot of redesign and pointless, excessive machining work, you could convert to a two piece, win/savage style bottom metal, but I'm not positive you have enough room to get your release integrated at the rear, and again, the side button required for an AR-10 type release just isn't going to happen without a substantial redesign - again, pointlessly excessive.

You're not the first guy to come up with this idea, and plenty of factory options are on the market, as I and others have laid out for you. Aftermarket DBM conversions exist for the Mauser action, so "welding up your own bottom metal from sheet stock" is really a waste of time. As I laid out in your other thread, however, your desire to have a precision rifle out of a low budget Mauser action is misguided on the whole, so this equally misguided and foolish "make my own bottom metal" task within said project is just another step too deep into something you'd be better off NOT doing...

 

[jmar]

Am I the one with comprehension issues?



Generally when someone says they "prefer finding a mag that fits in the existing box mag," I would consider they're looking to find a mag which fits in the existing box mag... As in, I read and understood exactly what you typed...



Your last here exactly illustrates my point... Call up Seekins, PTG, CDI, or any number of manufacturers of bottom metal, ask them how they build REAL bottom metal, then you'll understand my criticism. Hell, just holding one in your hand will tell you it's not made with sheet metal, nor assembled with a dremel and a welder... I HAVE produced my own bottom metal, precision milled from billet stock, not welded and dremel'd from sheet stock, and only when aftermarket options were not available (+2 drop belly magazine for Ruger M77 MkII's). As a career product development engineer and a moonlight gunsmith, having managed and contracted custom machine fabrication shops for over 15yrs to produce custom parts, I can tell you, your statement quoted here about producing your own bottom metal is absolutely laughable...

Does this look like sheet metal which was welded and dremel'd?

View attachment 773525

The dimensional problem you're facing is substantial. What you're describing sounds like putting a shoe over a sock because you haven't handled the gear and haven't done this kind of work. What you would know if you HAD done this kind of work is the details you describe are like putting two shoes on the same foot. The new magazine isn't going to fit inside of the old magazine. Any of these DBM conversions require upsizing the bottom metal inlet, and a complete replacement of the bottom metal. You're looking at a mag box with something on the order of 0.9" inside width at the rear, and a mag box which is ~1.1" at the rear... You're also facing the adaptation of the mag release, which being on the side of the AR-10 mags either requires conversion of your mags to a rear release or a pretty extensive inlet and engineering of a side release button. Because the K98 bottom metal is a one piece design which includes the integral mag box (unlike the rem 700, Ruger 77, Savage, Win 70), you really can't simply remove the original mag box and slip a new box through the original bottom metal, as removing the mag box effectively cuts the bottom metal in half. With a lot of redesign and pointless, excessive machining work, you could convert to a two piece, win/savage style bottom metal, but I'm not positive you have enough room to get your release integrated at the rear, and again, the side button required for an AR-10 type release just isn't going to happen without a substantial redesign - again, pointlessly excessive.

You're not the first guy to come up with this idea, and plenty of factory options are on the market, as I and others have laid out for you. Aftermarket DBM conversions exist for the Mauser action, so "welding up your own bottom metal from sheet stock" is really a waste of time. As I laid out in your other thread, however, your desire to have a precision rifle out of a low budget Mauser action is misguided on the whole, so this equally misguided and foolish "make my own bottom metal" task within said project is just another step too deep into something you'd be better off NOT doing...

Yes I understand making my own bottom metal from sheet steel is not ideal but I obviously don't have a mill, and I do want to go with a pre-made one, however as you also pointed out in my other thread Mausers have multiple action lengths and the action I'm getting I believe is the longest. Which means PTG and other brands bottom metal in the long length Mauser style is made for .300 WM not .308 like I desire. Their short action bottom metal in .308 is what I need but the name "short action" implies it's for a short action Mauser, and in the description it doesn't elaborate on this and only says no refunds. http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/maus...-mauser-detachable-magazine-bottom-metal.html Hence my questions in my other thread on if anyone can help me find one that works, this thread was made after assuming that none will for .308 hence the prospect of making my own, so if there is one in .308 for a long action please do tell.

 

[boom boom]

FWIW as the poster above noted, http://www.cdiprecisiongunworksstore.com/mauser-98-large-ring-308-223-box-mag-dbm-remington-798/
or they have another one for the yugo intermediate action (which fits a .308 a bit better than the long action anyway). They do look suspiciously like the PTG one that you posted. Worth a call to them.

 

[Varminterror]

PT&G has a phone number and email address specifically listed on their website. They're great folks, a pleasure every time I've had opportunity to speak with them.

No reason to buy a long action when a short action is what you're wanting. A couple of calls to both PT&G and CDI would be well worth the time, and you'd likely learn far more than you currently know about this conversion. We went down this road with you last year, discussing the use of over length actions for short action cartridges, when you had the foolhardy plan to build an M24 clone instead of build a precision AR.

A simple call to any of these folks may reveal the very part you need.

 

[boom boom]

PT&G has a phone number and email address specifically listed on their website. They're great folks, a pleasure every time I've had opportunity to speak with them.

No reason to buy a long action when a short action is what you're wanting. A couple of calls to both PT&G and CDI would be well worth the time, and you'd likely learn far more than you currently know about this conversion. We went down this road with you last year, discussing the use of over length actions for short action cartridges, when you had the foolhardy plan to build an M24 clone instead of build a precision AR.

A simple call to any of these folks may reveal the very part you need.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think of the quality of PTG's blueprinted action combos they are selling on their website?

 

[Varminterror]

Just out of curiosity, what do you think of the quality of PTG's blueprinted action combos they are selling on their website?

From what I have seen, they're as true as any blueprinted factory Remington action (moreso than the "factory blueprinted" 700s) I've held. I think concessions are made any time you start with a "wonky" action and bring it back to "true," whereas the pure custom actions out there start true and end true. But the price reflects that fact - a guy can get two blueprinted 700's from PTG for the same price as a Deviant. I built one of my specialty pistols on a PTG printed action have done a couple rifles, very happy with them for the money. I really like integral lugs and rails, but the other differences are a little hard to spell out - I notice my 591 is a lot smoother than my printed PTG, I sent the PTG out for DLC, now the scale is tipped the other way - and the price is a lot closer.

Part of the gap, in my opinion, is how they're blueprinted - as I understand it - some of their truing is done with their bushing based tools, and some of that process is sequential, so you can see compounding tolerance issues. They're also leaving the action boltway effectively as it was from factory, and fitting a custom bolt to it. The same tolerances can be accomplished, I think there's more potential for variation from one action to the next. I'm not certain how their bolt lugs are trued, but I've read their receiver faces, receiver lugs, and threads are trued based on bushed mandrels in the boltway, then the bolt face is trued by a cutter threaded into the receiver threads, against the face, then the bolt lugs lapped. It's a few steps away from the same reference, and all depends how well the bushings fit the boltway. I think it's likely better than most local smiths would do in blueprinting an action, but again, not quite as good as a fully sleeved ($$$$) or pure custom action.

So all of that sounds really negative, but I'm really happy to own the PTG's I have, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another. I'm actually considering building another 6 Creed on a PTG as another training rifle... Trying to decide whether I want another trainer, or a J Allen... (Or maybe build a 40x for NRL22... Decisions decisions...).

Maybe the shortest way I could say it - with the PTG actions at their price point, I won't ever buy another factory Remington 700 (and damned sure never pay to have one blueprinted). They're cheap enough that I don't have any excuse to buy factory rifles instead of building customs.

 

[boom boom]

From what I have seen, they're as true as any blueprinted factory Remington action (moreso than the "factory blueprinted" 700s) I've held. I think concessions are made any time you start with a "wonky" action and bring it back to "true," whereas the pure custom actions out there start true and end true. But the price reflects that fact - a guy can get two blueprinted 700's from PTG for the same price as a Deviant. I built one of my specialty pistols on a PTG printed action have done a couple rifles, very happy with them for the money. I really like integral lugs and rails, but the other differences are a little hard to spell out - I notice my 591 is a lot smoother than my printed PTG, I sent the PTG out for DLC, now the scale is tipped the other way - and the price is a lot closer.

Part of the gap, in my opinion, is how they're blueprinted - as I understand it - some of their truing is done with their bushing based tools, and some of that process is sequential, so you can see compounding tolerance issues. They're also leaving the action boltway effectively as it was from factory, and fitting a custom bolt to it. The same tolerances can be accomplished, I think there's more potential for variation from one action to the next. I'm not certain how their bolt lugs are trued, but I've read their receiver faces, receiver lugs, and threads are trued based on bushed mandrels in the boltway, then the bolt face is trued by a cutter threaded into the receiver threads, against the face, then the bolt lugs lapped. It's a few steps away from the same reference, and all depends how well the bushings fit the boltway. I think it's likely better than most local smiths would do in blueprinting an action, but again, not quite as good as a fully sleeved ($$$$) or pure custom action.

So all of that sounds really negative, but I'm really happy to own the PTG's I have, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another. I'm actually considering building another 6 Creed on a PTG as another training rifle... Trying to decide whether I want another trainer, or a J Allen... (Or maybe build a 40x for NRL22... Decisions decisions...).

Maybe the shortest way I could say it - with the PTG actions at their price point, I won't ever buy another factory Remington 700 (and damned sure never pay to have one blueprinted). They're cheap enough that I don't have any excuse to buy factory rifles instead of building customs.

Thanks. It always helps to hear from someone who has been there and done that and has the scars to prove it.

My nephew likes to hunt and wants to get into hunting elk in the West--thinking about giving him an appropriate graduation present in the proper caliber to do so in a couple of years.