maybe ive been wrong about ak accuracy. how accurate is yours?

In an apples to apples fair comparison, the myth gets busted.
http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=72144

 

About 3" out of my Vector built Polish kit, @ 100 yards with wolf.

The AK may not be a precision rifle, but the Russian army reports hits out to 700 yards. This is a feat that has been successfully reproduced on the static range - register at appleseed forums and read up.

To say that the AK isn't capable of hitting reliably at 200 yards is STRONG and blatant evidence of fixing the shoot in the "AR Vs. AK" clip.

 

I will agree 100 % with that.




Another thing that is not often considered in this topic are very well made custom builds that use better than normal barrels and other enhancements.
Since its fair to include accurized customs when considering other weapon platforms, maybe these should not be overlooked when considering all varients and their overall platform potential.

A heavier stiffer barrel usually helps to improve rifle harmonics so why not with an AK varient? Well, it sure helps the Vepr series as is already well enough known.
I guess every once in a while someone comes along and disproves popular consent of misunderstood topics. The krochus 7.62x39 project thread on the high road did just that for the caliber itself where many figured completely wrong about the 7.62x39 caliber potential. Someone made a custom AK with a serious barrel upgrade.They also custom handloaded for it and surprise!
Yeah, its another caliber but the point is the platform is not lacking potential.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=49270

 

I've shot AKs (especially one milled one) that would shoot an honest 2" at 100 yds with surplus ammo.

My AKS-74 will do about 2-1/2" off the bench with Russian surplus corrosive ammo, which is pretty far above my expectations.

These carbines aren't easy to shoot well off a bench rest, and the sights are not nearly as conducive to accurate shooting as other styles. I believe most of the poor accuracy myth comes from a combination of those factors, more than some inherent deficiencies in the design.

 

Using a Galil variant with Winchester .223 I can get about 3" groups.... Took a while to get there in terms of skill. WOLF, and it varies, but closer to 5 moa.

 

I have a Saiga IZ-240 (5.45x39 flavor) that will shoot 3 moa all day long with surplus 7n6 with a MTK-83 side mount and centerpoint 3-9x32 scope. Both of my AR's (delton 20" and BCM 14.5") will shoot the same 3 moa with silver bear 62gr JHP. They will shoot 1 to 1.5 moa with black hills 68gr match hp ammo. I think most the AKs accuracy "issues" stems from ammo that less than match grade

 

Ammo is usually more of an issue than the guns themselves. The gun, no matter what it is, is always at the mercy of the ammo you shoot, and even more so, you yourself. We are usually always the weakest link.

I've owned AK's form both ends of the price spectrum, and in between. All the forigen made guns shot/shoot pretty much the same. I never had good luck with US made guns though, and they were the worst shooters. Its been awhile though, so that may have changed.

This was shot at 200 yards with my SAR1, using the factory iron sights, which have a slight "cant" to them to boot. Ammo was a lot of Wolf 154 grain SP's that the gun likes. The lower group was fired from a rest to confirm zero, the upper from a cross legged sitting at a steady cadence. The flyer at the right was me.


This was the target before chasing zero, while getting the rifle zeroed.


100 yards, again sitting, but this time with Barnaul 125 grain SP's. (The "head" is 6" across, to give an idea as to the group size)



I've always had best results with the old Barnaul 125 grain SP's in all my rifles. I believe its now being marketed under the Brown and Silver Bear brands now.

Wolf has always been very inconsistent. Sometimes it shots great, other times, it really sucks. I also usually get a couple of "duds" per case with it for some reason too.

 

My brother has one of the Century bullpup AK's that Buds had on sale last christmas. Its ok up close but its not what I consider a bench gun. I wouldn't reach for it if I had to do anything precision but its better than nothing I assume. I put it in the 6" or worse category.

 

I kept my 50 yard target with Chinese Ball out of my WASR.

At 100 yards, the rifle will not hold the black of a standard NRA target, about 6 ". Some will leak out.

This is not a real limitation: that this rifle is extremely reliable and was designed to be used by untrained levee’s. Private Jessica Benjamin could have used a AK, she was so lacking in training that she did not know how to clear the jam in her M16. She said “it jammed”. She had not cleaned it since arrival in theater. Given that this is the level of training our first deployed Soldiers will have, minute of pie pan is fine, as long as the rifle shoots.

 

This target shows two five shot groups fired at 100yds through heavy rain. Golden Tiger ammo and my Yugo parts-kit M70AB2:

 

Who cares? Why do I need to be concerned with something that has no application in reality? My AK is not a sniper rifle, nor will it ever be employed as such. And if I am going to spend the money to feed something quality ammo, it is going to be my M1A. Why? Because it at least has the intrinsic mechanical accuracy to take advantage of the increased quality ammunition. I shot my AK from a rest, but it always gets fed some pretty cheap steel cased shhh-tuff and probably always will be. For the application of the rifle, all I need to know is what it is capable of with me in the most stable field position possible using an unmagnified red dot with whatever ammunition is cheap and available, probably still fired at a pace most firing lines would most certainly consider "rapid fire." So, rapid firing kneeling, with the Kobra on my WASR-10 fed Wolf MC 124 gr JHP, can I typically expect a hit percentage on hanging steel tie plate (slightly larger than an E-SAPI or other trauma plate) at 200 yards of at least 70% over the course of a 30 round string of fire? Yes, on pretty much any given day.

This is the target that came with my WASR, back when it had the cruddy trigger group with the trigger slap...before the G2 in it now. And before the Mojo ghost ring sights, and the Kobra reflex sight. And back then it had a really short, crappy wood stock and the pistol grip felt like a spatula handle. So neither the ACE M4-style folder nor the SAW style grip and the G2 trigger group really did all that much to enhance the mechanical accuracy of the rifle, but they should make it easier for me to shoot it comfortably and accurately than it must have been for the tester. So I can usually put five rounds of the aforementioned Wolf load into about a four inch group, with the occasional three round group going into just under three inches at 100 yards. Think softball sized five shot groups from the prone being pretty typical at 100 yards.

 

I've shot AKs that could be described as accurate. They were capable of hitting targets to 200 or so yards reliably.

To my way of thinking, the biggest shortcoming of the AK design (after the poor ergonomics, inferior iron sights, and generally poor triggers) is the lack of an ability to install a free float tube on the gun.

 

I've been getting about 3.25-3.5 with both Wolf Black Box and Military Classic (both FMJ) out of my Saiga. I think the trigger is poo and upgrading that will help some but I think that for my skill level, or lack there of, I'm pretty damn happy with the rifle

 

I absolutely HATE that stupid video. I'm not an AK fanboy, actually I never even owned one, but that's just ridiculous. If your only a moderately capable rifleman, you can hit a mansized target at 200 yards all day with any AK. Totally biased video, and just look at how the shooter slaps that trigger...

When I shot AKs (never had a chance to shoot farther than 100 meters) I managed 3"-4" groups once I was accustomed to the sights and trigger. Some people with good AKs can probably do better.

Did I mention how much I hate that video and the so called "experts" that made it?

 

The failure of this particular soldier's leadership does NOT reflect that of the ENTIRE United States Army, not does it represent a small percentage. There were poorly trained knuckleheads, and their leaders, getting themselves killed in every other war before MY generation. Inconsiderate and naive people love to latch on to mistakes of the minority, and use it to represent the majority, which is pure BS. If you have such a poor opinion of those who sacrifice to represent and protect YOU, you might consider moving to Mexico?

On the topic of AK rifles, I expect minute of torso at 100 yards. Tighter groups than that are a pleasant surprise.

 

My Sar-1 is about 4-5" "target" shooting at 100yds. Group opens up to 12 - 14" when I'm throwing 'em out there, standing, unsupported, like I might in a "situation".

 

Most all of this is lack of experience with the rifle, not the rifle itself.

The ergos are not at all bad if you spend some realistic time with the gun, and bother to learn how to work it. Once you do, most of all complaints magically disappear. You can easily run the guns controls without ever removing your hand from the grip. The selector and mag release all can be manipulated with one finger, and mags do drop free without help most of the time.

The stock is not "short", and actually has the same LOP as most other combat stocked rifles. Most of the problem here is, the people complaining dont shoulder and shoot the rifle properly, and then blame the gun. Like the M16/AR's, you shoot them with your head down and nose to, or along side the top cover. Your cheek is on the narrow portion of the stock just behind the receiver, not on the hump/false comb towards the rear.

Ive never understood all the complaints about the sights. They are the same type sight that most all hunting rifles come with, or at least used to come with (that, and reasonable length stocks), and what most all the older surplus rifles had mounted. They do have a slightly shorter radius, but it is really not a handicap. Personally, I find them easier to use than peeps, for close range, fast shooting, and they work very well in that capacity. Even at 2-300 yards, if you cant make good hits on a man sized target, look to yourself or your ammo, or both, but from what Ive seen, its usually the shooter.

I also dont understand the trigger comments. Every AK I've had or shot, has had a much nicer trigger than most all the standard grade AR's, or M16's Ive shot (I'm not talking match tuned triggers here). Even the guns with crappy US compliance parts that had slap were better. They may have caused some discomfort, but they were really not a bad trigger. AK's with factory parts were usually much nicer, but you dont usually get to see them these days.

The worst AK trigger Ive had was the Tapco G2. After hearing all the raves, I swapped out the one on my WASR (which was fine, and has been reinstalled) and instantly regretted it. It was heavy and crunchy, and would actually on random but frequent occasions, take a "set" when the slack was taken up but the trigger not fully pulled. The next time you started to pull, the trigger was basically in hair trigger mode, and the gun would go off unexpectedly.

 

The sight issue is easy to fix. I bought the Tech Sight, and while expensive ($110) it is of high quality and fit my receiver with almost no fitting. It uses an M16A1 type rear flip peep and puts it right where mil shooter are used to.

My AK74 came with the tapco trigger, and it was a lot better than I expected. As the previous poster mentioned, at least as good if not better than a standard AR trigger.

I have admit that I've been something of an AK hater for the longest time, but my latest experience has made me revise my opinion. Certainly this latest gun will shoot better than my Mini-14, for about 2/3 the cost.

The AK is what it is - uber-reliable, ugly, cheap, reasonably accurate and at its best as a basic rifle without all the rail and addons one sees on a lot of ARs. Given that 70% of all infantry small arms engagements occur at 100 meters or less, even the minute of plate guns are more than adequate for most combat. 3 MOA is as good as a lot of hunting rifles out there, as anyone who looks at range targets (rather than reading gun magazines) knows.

 

Doesnt that Tech Sight knock you in the face when you shoot the rifle, especially if you shoulder it quickly? I know it would wail me, as my face sits right where the sight is mounted when I shoot.

The best set up I've found so far for the AK's, is the Ultimak/Aimpoint combo. It gives you a forward mounted red dot, that is in the same plane as the factory iron sights, which allows you to cowitness the dot with the iron sights. The rifle shoulders and shoots just like it does with the iron sights alone, and you get the same cheek weld. I have yet to find anything faster or easier to shoot with. Snap shots are a breeze, even at 100 yards and beyond. Simple and rugged, its the one set up that actually works (realistically), and brings the AK's right into the 21st century with the M16/AR's.

 

I just recently joined the AK club with the purchase of a Romanian AK-74 from Centerfiresytems with only 400 rounds through it im not going to comment on the rifle itself . It was more accurate then i expected from an AK ,2 1/2 to 3 1/2'' at 100 yrds and thats with a scope( my eyes just can't see that far)

 

I have about the same distance to the sight as I do with an A1 stocked AR with my nose on the charging handle. I'm not sure if the rifle has a NATO length stock, and it is only 5.45x39.

I thought about the Ultimak/aimpoint, but that would push the budget way up. As it sits, I have a little over $500 into the rifle total. And adding a electronic sight would violate the idea of a basic no frills shooter

 

The red dot, or at least a good one, does push the price up, but its not a waste, and when mounted on the Ultimak, does not interfere with how the rifle handles, and just enhances it. The Russian red dots, while rugged and well made, just are not shootable for me. They have them mounted in the wrong place and force you to shoot unnaturally.

I understand the "no frills" thing, and have a couple myself, but the ones I usually pick up and shoot/use, have night sights and Aimpoints on them.

Thats as far as I go one the "improvements" too. I prefer the AK's basically stock and as they come, and Im not trying to turn them into an AR. A good Russian sling and moving the rear sling swivel to the left side of the stock on guns that have it elsewhere, along with taking a jewelers file to a couple of points on the guns controls to smooth them up, are the only other thing I do.

 

AK103, you've pretty much convinced me to put an ultimak on my 74. Any suggestions on a forend? The factory CAI is fairly worthless and the Tapco Galil I am using now doesn't have clearance.

I looked at an Arsenal forend and Midway wants $55, or $87 for the whole stock set. WTH?

 

If you are looking at a Forend and Rail I can only point you to this thread.

That AK is one of the nicest I have ever seen. it shoots like a dream.
This also brings us back to accuracy. This gun is as close to a tack driver as I have ever seen out of an AK. The trigger is amazing. In fact the first time he let me fire it I thought it had a happy fun switch because the trigger was light enough I accidentally doubled it.

If you love AKs or want a quality AK I suggest you contact Mr. Smith about some of his work, honestly he is probably one of the better AK (or AR and lever gun) Armorers out there.
He is the one who made me realize that AKs are not the junk I was always told they were.