MBC .309 bullets in a Marlin 336

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm shooting the #1 Whitetail 165gr RNFP bullets in my levergun but my gun is an older Marlin (Glenfield) with Ballard rifling, not micro-groove rifling. I'm getting outstanding accuracy and little to no leading to speak of. I can hit 3 for 3 empty shotshell cases @50 yards using those bullets. I loaded them using H4895. Velocity on the first go-around was low at only 1340 fps but I'll work on that next loading. (although they are so accurate now I just might leave things as they are)

 

[Jech]

What charge are you using for such low velocity? Are you getting a complete / clean burn consistently?

 

[Dr. A]

Didn't check to see if this wes posted. You can check and see what will work and what won't Your sizing is fine. You're trying to shoot these bullets too fast...

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Ideally, they are cowboy bullets, and that means SLOW.

 

[Jech]

Didn't check to see if this wes posted. You can check and see what will work and what won't Your sizing is fine. You're trying to shoot these bullets too fast...

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Ideally, they are cowboy bullets, and that means SLOW.

So I am learning...bottleneck cartridges are very different from learning to load for my .45auto that's for sure! I'm used to simple if/then statements for bullet purposes and powder choice almost being an afterthought. General shooting? ...LRN Competition? ...SWC Woods carry? ...LHP and that's about all there was to it heh.

Good link btw, thank you for the resource!

 

[Dr. A]

If you don't have direct data corresponding from his sight, there were folks that used to use 7gr. of their given pistol powder and wander up or down dept. on effect. I've had the best luck with 2400 as have thousands of others for the 30-30. 8gr. gave the best group size according to Greg on his data. I would bet yours would be right there as well. Don't try to reinvent the wheel. Stop beating yourself up!

Looking at his data, but first choices would be

8gr. 2400
10gr. H4227
Reddot 5.5gr.
Titegroup 5.0gr.
My gun's load is not listed.

Its HS-6 at 7gr. Your 165gr. bullets will not make a difference from his 170gr. Keep the .311 sizing and forget going over about 1400fps. My one and only 1500fps load for those bullets was with IMR4198, but it pales in comparison with a gas checked bullet.

 

[Jech]

Yet another range report, looks like I need to play around between 7.0gr and 8.0gr in .2gr increments now and see how they do at 50/100yds

Load and conditions...
165gr .311" Whitetails, Unique, 2.50" OAL, medium FCD crimp, WLR primers, neck-sized Winchester brass. 3.5-10x40mm Bushnell Banner scope set to lowest magnification. Used a bipod, no rear rest. Mid 40's, fluctuating 5-10mph breeze coming from 10 o'clock. All group measurements listed are center-to-center for 10-shot groups at 25 yards, excluding the first "fouling shot" which would have opened up all groups by at least 3 inches.

7.2gr -- .76" and .9" -- no signs of leading, target looks like a clover patch =D

7.9gr -- .91" and 1.22" -- mild leading appeared about halfway through the second string, accuracy started to drop off.

8.3gr -- 1.92" -- leading increasing, ran boresnake 3x every 5 shots, accuracy worsening but is it from increased fouling or the powder charge being too high? Hmmm...

9.0gr -- 2.2" -- significant leading, still snaking frequently, no touching shots, at least .6" separating each hole. Was still able to drill an old helium tank at 100yds 4 out of 5 shots even though 25yd group was very poor.

Edit: I have some HS-6 sitting around from some .45auto JHP expansion tests a while back, gotta put that one on the loads-to-work-up list!

 

[blarby]

So, I'd love to see what happens with 7.2 gr @ 100 yds, when you have the time

Very good research, thanks for the info !

 

[Jech]

Hopefully I'll have more info Friday evening...gotta go to the gun club meeting tomorrow and renew my dues then Thursday evening has been booked for some "us time" with SWMBO.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

What charge are you using for such low velocity? Are you getting a complete / clean burn consistently?

Remember, the bullets we are talking about are lead and do not have a gas check installed. Because I was worried about pushing a lead bullet too hard initially I started out on the low side of the charge range. According to Hodgdon a charge of 21.0gr was supposed to generate 1562fps but my rifle delivered only 1340fps. (I am shooting from a 18.5" barrel) Because there was no leading at all next time around I'm going to up the charge. I'm working blind from here out because all the hotter data is for bullets with a gas check so I will have to go slow and see how much I can get from that bullet. I'm guessing I could probably get them up to ~1800fps without any significant leading.

 

[Jech]

Range report!

2.550" OAL
2.035" Winchester brass
MBC .311" 165gr #1 Whitetail
Moderate LFCD crimp
7.2gr Unique
WLR primers

1st string @ 50yds, 6 shots
5-shot group of 1.09", omitting 1st shot for fouling.
Low vel: 1163fps
High vel: 1220fps
Average: 1182fps
Extreme spread: 56.32
Standard deviation: 23.85

2nd string @ 100yds, 10 shots
Best 3-shot group is .75", 5-shot group is 1.26", POI 6" lower from 50yd zero.
Low vel: 1187
High vel: 1249
Average: 1208
Extreme spread: 62.18
Standard deviation: 19.82

Never bothered to check for leading since the groups were staying tight, after these 20 shots, I switched to a gas-checked round which would have cleared any out fi it was even there.

I fired the last 4 of the 20 total shots at the 250yd torso-sized steel plate just to see if I could nail it. 3 of the 4 shots hit their mark, used something like 4 or 5 feet of elevation hold. Bang...chamber next round...scribble notes...check wind speed...Ding! The delay almost made me laugh...some of the most relaxing target shooting I've done in a long time. Great to finally use a chrono and see what's really happening!

 

[blarby]

I must say- I'm very, very impressed !

Excellent work, great reporting- and you get bonus points for the silhouette targets.

Looks Like I'll be following in your footsteps shortly.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Jech,
You got even lower velocities than I did. I'm just wondering why in Post #52 you asked me about the "low" velocity I reported in Post #51.

 

[Jech]

Arch,

Yesterday was the first time I've ever tried a chronograph before...anything prior to that I had no idea what my velocities were. My question was about your H4895 burn consistency because when I tried downloaded H4895 charges in the high teens and low twenties, I had large quantities of unburned powder in the barrel. I was also curious to know what charge you were using to get that ~1350fps velocity.

 

[Jech]

So I know the thread has kinda drifted from the original intent...oh well...

Just thought I'd post and say that I'm up to my 8th loading on a 60 piece batch of Winchester brass without full-length sizing. The source was factory ammo which was all fired through my Marlin and it just keeps on trucking...no trouble closing the action whatsoever. Once fired, case length was in the 2.022"-2.024" range and the longest of them are up to 2.038" which is still under the 2.040" length my Lee trimmer is capable of.

Interestingly enough, after the 3rd or 4th loading, they stopped lengthening and have been humming along just great ever since. Also, that 8x load count is comprised of 5 loadings at full power (2000-2150fps) and 3x at powderpuff velocities.

 

[blarby]

I've heard some great things about winchester brass, and some not great things as well.

30-30 is a lower pressure load, so it you treat your brass well, you should see some good cartridge life.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Those are very good results Jeck...

 

[blarby]

So, my order for the .311 165's is going out to brad on saturday.... thought payday would never come, but its just over the horizon.


Did you ever have any luck with 4895, or felt so good with unique that you didn't bother to continue down that road ?

It'll be nice to have Unique filled cheaper loads in cast, and H4895 loads for jacketed...but I lost sleep last night wondering if we could push jacketed with unique !

 

[Jech]

I kinda gave up with pushing flat or bevel based bullets with H4895. When I down-loaded it to the sub-1500fps range, the burn was always so incomplete (even with a very strong crimp) that my ES/SD data was awful and accuracy was very sub-par as the POI adjusted a lot from the velocity inconsistency.

For sub-1600fps, I see absolutely no reason to use anything but Unique although I would still like to try some 2400...just haven't had some extra cash for it yet.

I tried a few loads of Unique behind a 150gr Hornady Interlock and was not very happy with them...the low velocity combined with the higher friction of a jacket didn't bode well for consistency either.

 

[popper]

This thread is getting more interesting. I've been thinking of getting some of Brad's lighter cast and using Unique. The .311 results you all are getting may convince me.

 

[blarby]

Thanks for the continuing info jech !

I guess we'll save the rifle powder for jackets, and keep the unique for the cast..... cant wait for 'em to show up in the mail !

Got more order snuck in before payday

 

[ssyoumans]

For sub-1600fps, I see absolutely no reason to use anything but Unique although I would still like to try some 2400.

I looked at 2400, and I think the powder is too slow.
Per quickload (which was very accurate predicting my Blue Dot loads)
12gr 2400 is ~1450fps but only 40% fill and 15,400 PSI. Too low of pressure for 2400. You'd have to push the bullet with 14-15grs to get 21k-24k pressure which is going to drive velocity up over 1625-1700 fps. Probably too fast for non gas checked bullet?

Blue dot was about as slow of a powder that works within desired pressure.
12gr BD, 1534fps, 19,738PSI.
this is even borderline too low pressure and too fast velocity. I really think Unique is best.
QL predictions, 20" barrel:
7.2gr Unique, 1270fps, 17.7k PSI
8gr Unique, 1349fps, 21k PSI
9gr Unique, 1438fps, 25.3k PSI
10gr Unique, 1523fps, 29.9k PSI

What velocity are you shooting for? I'm still concerned with leading over 1500fps. Darn rain this weekend is going to ruin my planned trip to the range for further testing

 

[Jech]

In my 336ss (20" bbl), 7.2gr/Unique gives me an average of 1180fps from this MBC bullet seated to 2.500" putting the case mouth in the crimp groove, LFCD used, 2.033" trimmed Winchester brass, WLR standard primers.

I've tried accuracy-testing Unique charges up to 10gr but saw a lot of leading and accuracy REALLY dropped off after 8gr. I never bothered to chrono these.

Personally, QL has been way off with virtually every calculation it makes with my 30-30. I really don't care about what it says cause my rifle has it's own personality and likes what it likes, not what a program says it will.

I take some of the "staple loads" of the cartridge from those with experience and try them out, tuning them for my rifle. I see no point in re-inventing the wheel performing all kinds of calculations that will probably end up not holding true in my rifle.

Is 2400 too this or too that? ...is Unique too much of this or not enough of that? Try it out and see what it does...you might be surprised with what you find!

 

[blarby]

I cant wait to find out what I find

 

[ssyoumans]

Range report..

Great weather here in Atlanta today, 75-80 degrees, 10mph breeze.

Continuing to work with Blue Dot in the 30-30 with the 165 gr MBC .311" cast Whitetail #1 FP bullets.
All loads, R-P or Win Brass, CCI Large Rifle Primers, 2.508", 4 - 8 shot groups

8.0gr Blue Dot, 1195 fps, ES 15, SD 6.2, KE 523, QL predicted 1152 fps, 9356 PSI
9.0gr Blue Dot, 1268 fps, ES 31, SD 13.0, KE 589, QL predicted 1257 fps, 11,566 PSI
10.0gr Blue Dot, 1349 fps, ES 7, SD 2.9, KE 667, QL predicted 1354 fps, 14,034 PSI
11.0gr Blue Dot, 1446 fps, ES 27, SD 10, KE 766, QL predicted 1444 fps, 16,744 PSI
12.0gr Blue Dot, 1521 fps, ES 78, SD 23.5, KE 847, QL predicted 1528 fps, 19,738 PSI
13.0gr Blue Dot, 1589 fps, ES 33, SD 13.5, KE 925, QL predicted 1608 fps, 23,010 PSI

I got through all of the chrono testing, but only limited accuracy testing due to range factors. I need to load up some more, and investigate accuracy a bit more.

I didn't notice any excessive leading in the barrel, but honestly, it's hard to see in there, even with a bore light & the bolt removed. Maybe it's just my tired eyes, but the rifling looks good. Next trip, just accuracy testing.
Here was one of my best, 50 yards, 3-9x32 Simmons scope.

These 2 don't really count with a 2 shot groups... but who knows..

I think I will load up 10 rounds of each, 9, 10, 11 & 12 grs and see if any one stands out, and then zero in from there..? Even then, that's only a (2) 5 shot groups for each load.

POI is significantly different from my 160gr FTX load, about 4" low at 50 yards, and about 1.5" right (odd). I guess I'll play with these over the summer and then re-sight in for deer season in late September.

I'll post results from the 44 Mag with 240 gr MBC Smashers in another post.. those accuracy results made me smile..

 

[blarby]

RANGE DAY !

Jech, you are indeed a genius.

Although, I must say- felt more like a pop gun than a .30-30 !

Fired 50 rounds @ 100 yards using 7.2 gr, 2.530 OAL.

I'll be posting some pics here shortly !

For now, Enjoy the pic of my range pickins....including the 3 7.62*39 polymer mags someone left !