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Mental illness and owning firearms

Discussion in 'Legal' started by whm1974, Jan 27, 2013.

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  1. Zombiphobia

    Zombiphobia Member

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    If you can work, pay your bills, take care of yourself etc.. and not threatening suicide or harming others you're fine.

    And the law is that unless you specifically state that you're actively planning to hurt yourself or others, the psychiatrist or psychologist cannot report it, but if you ARE planning such, they are required to report it.


    If you're just depressed and not a danger to yourself or others, there's nothing to stop you.

    That's what licensed, practicing psychiatrists/psychologists have told me personally.

    I don't know about the doctor making up their mind that you're a danger without you specifically stating it, but under certain circumstances they CAN have you legally institutionalized temporarily for thorough examination. If that hasn't happened, you're fine. If it has happened, you cannot own a firearms legally.
     
  2. whm1974

    whm1974 Member

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    This hasn't happend to me.
     
  3. LiENUS

    LiENUS Member

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    The ATF seems to disagree with you.
    and then to follow up...
    If you were hospitalized for observation then they say you can still own firearms (source: http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/i/atf-i-3310-4.pdf) however the question is does receiving disability count as a board "adjudicating as a mental defective" due to the "Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs" really and truly if you need to get disability why are you worried about whether you can own guns or not are you going to give up disability so you can keep firearms rights if that is the case? There are mental health advocates out there I would talk to one of them they know more about this than we do and can give you better advice than we can.
     
  4. ezkl2230

    ezkl2230 Member

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    Adjudicated.is not the only word about which you need to be concerned. If you are currently undergoing treatment for depression it can effect your ability to own a firearm even if you have not been adjudicated.
     
  5. LiENUS

    LiENUS Member

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    My goal is to encourage him to go outside of this forum for that, inquiring about gun rights on this forum is not the correct course of action he needs to be discussing this with someone else if it's that big of a deal with him he should be discussing it with an attorney or his doctor.

    ezkl2230 I see nothing about simple treatment in the atf's opinion on this, however I do see adjudicated being a key word... perhaps you know something the atf doesn't? http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/i/atf-i-3310-4.pdf

    I see people post about this again and again on forums and rather than looking at what the atf says or saying to go to an attorney they try to make guesses about what they think might be the case. If you're undergoing treatment for depression under the current law the atf doesn't care. If you have been adjudicated by certain authorities or if you are presently involuntarily committed (in which case he would likely not be posting here although it is possible) you can't own firearms. They're primarily concerned with what some authority says in a formal hearing and not solely on medical finding.
     
  6. Zombiphobia

    Zombiphobia Member

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    Lienus, what you posted does not contradict what I stated. Unless I'm misunderstanding.

    I mean, the psyche doctor can't physcially arrest someone and put them ina straight jacket, but they can send up a report and a recommendation of committal and then someone else can come and take them to the happy farm. Admittedly, I'm not completely clear on this, but I do agree that the OP should seek advice someplace outside this forum. Like an attorney and whoever is treating him for this depression, who will more likely than not recommend against it, and IME in a demeaning manner.
    Anyway, I've been treated for depression, and I temporarily had my weapons taken away, but I was a minor, and it was my parents who took them... I never threatened anyone or did anything to present a threat, so I can still own a firearm.
     
  7. whm1974

    whm1974 Member

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    I have no desire to own firearms at this time or the forseeable future. And Yes I am focused on my recovery/treatment at the moment.

    If it turns out that I can't own fireowns again, then I can deal with that. I can always shoot airguns and/or airsoft later on.
     
  8. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    He has talked with an advocate, myself, and my opinion is that if his moods are so chronically labile that he cannot work, then taking on the responsibility of owning, and or carrying a firearm should be avoided.

    What about driving? He might drive his car into another car or a crowd of people or off a cliff on purpose.
     
  9. ezkl2230

    ezkl2230 Member

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    Referring to state laws. In Michigan, being under treatment for depression or other mental issues can stand in the way of a firearm purchase (at least in the case of pistols). Once the treatment has run its course, though, that no longer stands in the way.
     
  10. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    Exactly and the Right to Bear and Keep Firearms is guaranteed in The Bill of Rights and is not subject to the whim of public or the forums opinion.
     
  11. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    I thought we were talking about mental illness not a mental defect which characterized by significantly impaired cognitive functioning and deficits other adaptive behaviors such as retardation, organic brain damage, and learning disabilities.

    Since you alluded to being a licensed mental health professional with a docorate do you advise your patients before they start treatment they may report them to law enforcement causing them to loss their right to bear arms if you decide to do so? Or is that something you decide to do whenever as you put it “if I had a client who was poking around, seeking after such information whilst recieving intensive therapy for a mental illness so debilitating that he is unable to even work.” Do you report them if they disagree with your treatment and seek treatment with another doctor? Do you bring charges against another doctor with the medical licensing board in your state whose opinion and treatment is different than yours?

    You state “He is caught up in the perfect catch-22, go to work and continue to treat as do millions of others, or surrender his rights to the state while he recieves full disability compensation due to mental defect.” What do you consider “rudimentary work”? Is managing a household, doing the laundry, fixing meals, taking care of the kids qualify or is it only the type of “work” you approve of?

    The CDC estimates that as many as 1 in 10 Americans suffer from depression. It sounds like you have a lot of Americans to report to law enforcement about losing their gun rights. For any type of medical treatment to be effective there has to be a bond of trust that whatever informative I share with my doctor will remain confidential. Especially in the Psychiatry which the patient may divulge their deepest thoughts and emotions. Personally I would be very frightened of receiving any treatment from you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  12. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    Referring to state laws. In Michigan, being under treatment for depression or other mental issues can stand in the way of a firearm purchase (at least in the case of pistols). Once the treatment has run its course, though, that no longer stands in the way.

    Since some illnesses such as bipolar disorder is a lifetime illness and may require medication and periodic counseling those that seek help are barred from owning a handgun for the rest of their life, even though they are trying to improve themselves, the lives of others around them and be a more productive member of society.
     
  13. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    1; Well divorce courts award alimony to homemakers that have never worked outside the home. I guess you need to go straighten out divorce judges.

    2; The Social Security Administration is a department of the Federal Government. It defines working as working as “engaging in substantial gainful activity.” For example for bipolar disorder The SSA must conclude the disability must be severe enough to significantly limit one’s ability to perform basic work activities needed to do most jobs. For example:

    Walking, standing, sitting, lifting, pushing, pulling, reaching, carrying or handling
    Seeing, hearing and speaking
    Understanding/carrying out and remembering simple instructions
    Responding appropriately to supervision, co-workers and usual work situations
    Dealing with changes in a routine work setting

    Nowhere do I see where it states the client has to be “emotionally labile, he cannot interact with other people, and he is so emotionally impaired that he has either no energy whatsoever, or that he is periodically psychotic, and or over stimulated!”

    For example for Bi-polar Disorder the criteria the SSA lists is;

    Bipolar is listed under mental disorders. To satisfy the listing criteria for bipolar disorder, a number of variables are considered:

    Anhedonia
    Appetite disturbance
    Sleep disturbance
    Psychomotor agitation or retardation
    Decreased energy
    Feelings of guilt or worthlessness
    Difficulty concentrating or thinking
    Thoughts of suicide and hallucinations
    Delusions or paranoid thinking

    In assessing bipolar disability relative to a listing level impairment, the following areas of functioning are evaluated:
    Restrictions of activities of daily living
    Maintaining social functioning
    Deficiencies of concentration
    Persistence or pace
    Repeated episodes of decompensation--each of extended duration
    An individual who has four symptoms present from the depressive syndrome list, as well as extreme limitation in two of the four functional areas, would probably be eligible for benefits.

    As a licensed medical professional you know that Bi-polar Disorder is characterized by periods of high energy “mania” and periods of depression with fluctuations in energy, activity levels and the ability to complete everyday tasks. Yet many brilliant people make contributions to society everyday even though they meet the above criteria.

    Again nowhere do I see where it states the client has to be “emotionally labile, he cannot interact with other people, and he is so emotionally impaired that he has either no energy whatsoever, or that he is periodically psychotic, and or over stimulated!” nor does the SSA consider the liklihood of violence which would be expected if it was a criteria.

    3. Since the Social Security Administration is a Federal Agency are you assigning them the same power as a Court of Law?

    4. Are you saying that if a ALJ and members of the Appeal Panels approve benefits for the client then they have “ajudicated" him for the purposes of BATF Form 4473 and he is forever banned from owning firearms?

    5. You did not address my questions about whether you report them if they disagree with your treatment and seek treatment with another doctor and do you bring charges against another doctor with the medical licensing board in your state whose opinion and treatment is different than yours?

    6. Contrary to the impression you are trying to create with a largely uninformed audience Psychiatry is far from an exact science and I could make many comments about ability of mental health professionals.
     
  14. LemmyCaution

    LemmyCaution Member

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    Yes, but safely and competently handling a firearm requires much greater abilities than the above, and our correspondent seems to be failing to clear even this low bar (which is not a judgment of his character, and I wish him a full recovery and a return to firearms ownership). Harsh as Maud Dib sounds, and I certainly don't want him as my doctor, I think he's right in this case.
     
  15. alsaqr

    alsaqr Member

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    Exactly. Doctor, everything you have said on this thread makes sense to me.
     
  16. ironhead7544

    ironhead7544 Member

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    In Illinois, I would say you are out of luck. Get an application for a FOID and see if you qualify.
     
  17. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    It seems poster M.D. has no counter points and questions I raised in Posts 41 & 43.

    I should also point out the his comments "emotionally labile, he cannot interact with other people, and he is so emotionally impaired that he has either no energy whatsoever, or that he is periodically psychotic, and or over stimulated!" are not terms and language true mental health professionals, especially one with a docorate would use.

    Puzzled by M.D.'s lack of counterpoints to my questions I directly posed to him and his use of emotional, non-medical terminology I checked his public profile. He states on it:

    About Muad Dib
    Location
    Mlps/St Paul

    Interests
    wildlife photography

    Occupation
    Professional wildlife photographer

    What I do for the RKBA and other civil liberties
    Member NRA, Own more then a few firearms

    How's that again??? He lists his occupation is a Professional Wildlife Photographer.

    In regards to the O.P.'s original post he, his family and treatment professionals are in the best postion to determine if owning a firearm is wise.
     
  18. whm1974

    whm1974 Member

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    I was thinking that too.

    I would think so. IF it turn out that I can't legally own firearms after I get my SSD then I can deal with that and move on.

    Thanks for all the help guys.
     
  19. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Can't play nice? Oh well. Hope somebody was helped...
     
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