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Mexico protests US border agents' pepper weapons

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Drizzt, Aug 16, 2004.

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  1. Drizzt

    Drizzt Member

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    Mexico protests US border agents' pepper weapons

    REUTERS , Mexico City
    Friday, Aug 13, 2004,Page 7

    Mexican opposition legislators are up in arms over the US Border Patrol's use of weapons firing plastic bullets filled with pepper powder against Mexican migrants as they cross the border illegally.

    Although the nonlethal weapons have been used sporadically for at least two years, the issue was thrust into the spotlight with a recent video shown on Mexican television of agents in battle dress firing paint ball game-style rifles loaded with florescent plastic pepper pellets at targets.

    "We will not permit these kinds of acts that violate human rights," Sadot Sanchez, who heads the Senate's human rights commission and is a member of PRI, the opposition Institutional Revolutionary Party, said Wednesday.

    Last week, Zacatecas state Governor Ricardo Monreal fired off a telegram to US President George W. Bush, describing the use of the weapon as "xenophobic and racist" and "reminiscent of the Kristallnacht [purges] in Nazi Germany."

    The video shown this month also contained separate images of a Mexican lifting his T-shirt to reveal welts and bruises on his chest, presumably from pellet impacts.

    The pellets are plastic-coated but break on impact, causing welts and releasing pepper dust. In Mexico, critics call them "rubber bullets."

    Mexicans are traditionally very sensitive about the relationship with their powerful northern neighbor. Millions of Mexicans live and work in the US and many first crossed the 3,200km border as undocumented migrants.

    Hundreds of people die every year in treacherous border crossings and previous incidents of Mexicans being shot by US Border Patrol agents caused uproar here. The introduction of the pepper weapons was in part aimed at preventing fatal shootings along the border.

    Agents of the US Border Patrol's Tucson sector in Arizona, the most heavily crossed route for illegal migrants, have had the weapons for the past two years but officials say there are strict regulations on their use.

    The weapons "are only ever used to defend yourself, another agent, or an innocent third party from assault," spokesman Andy Adame said on Wednesday.

    "They allow us to disarm migrants throwing softball sized rocks at agents, without using deadly force against them."
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    Would they prefer the BP use live ammo?
     
  2. boofus

    boofus Guest

    I agree, they should stop shooting pepperballs at criminals and start using FMJs.

    Real bullets can't be as bad as those mean ole nasty crime against humanity non-lethal pepper rounds.
     
  3. Warbow

    Warbow Member

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    What are these fools smoking? Kristallnacht!?

    That's rich.

    "Let's worry about illegal "migrants" getting pelted with pepper balls while our own corrupt authorities have one of the worst records regarding human rights!"
     
  4. Destructo6

    Destructo6 Member

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    That kind of analogy is a good way to flush your credibility down the commode.
     
  5. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    Cry me a river, Senor Sanchez. We ain't played cowboys and border jumpers yet.
     
  6. FNHP35

    FNHP35 Member

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    Wow, you know the Mexican Gov is weak when it's trying to use that as leverage against Bush. I think the BP's policy is way too weak. I don't know about using FMJ's... but Pepper Ball sounds like a great way to make their day very miserable if they try to cross the border. I have no respect for the Mex Gov. They owe (last time I checked) tons of water from the Rio Grande. Just... trash.

    Andrew
     
  7. KMKeller

    KMKeller Member

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    Well boo freakin' hoo Governor Ricardo Monreal. Keep your homies on your side of the dotted line and we've no more issue now do we?
     
  8. hkOrion

    hkOrion Member

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    The video shown this month also contained separate images of a Mexican lifting his T-shirt to reveal welts and bruises on his chest, presumably from pellet impacts.

    The pellets are plastic-coated but break on impact, causing welts and releasing pepper dust. In Mexico, critics call them "rubber bullets."


    You're kidding, right? I guess we could always go back to using the "real bullets". That would at least stop the whining of the people ILLEGALLY crossing our borders.

    hkOrion
     
  9. joe sixpack

    joe sixpack Member

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  10. tyme

    tyme Member

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    Seems about par for the course.

    Mexico whines when we don't put water stations in the desert for illegal immigrants.
    Mexico whines if we try to prosecute illegals rather than ship them back across the border so they can try again.
    Why not whine about non-lethal ammunition?

    Sooner or later they'll whine that there's a river along part of the border, and ask us to fill it in.
     
  11. DesertEagle613

    DesertEagle613 Member

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    I suppose if the border-crossers are throwing "fist-sized rocks" at agents, the agents could always throw some rocks back at them...

    It woud be hard to argue that one, though I imagine the Mexicanos would try anyway.
     
  12. flatrock

    flatrock Member

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    I have no problem with border guards shooting illegal immagrants that are throwing rocks at them. The pepper weapons are possibly appropriate, but when someone throws a rock at you, a bullet is a reasonable response.
     
  13. Soap

    Soap Member

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    No problem, then let's go back to using saps.
     
  14. FrankGrimeyGrimes

    FrankGrimeyGrimes Member

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    Boo-freakin'-hoo!

    Too bad someone can't zap Dirty Sanchez with a couple of paintball rounds followed by a couple of rounds of .45 ACP, this way he can make an "informed" opinion.
     
  15. ID_shooting

    ID_shooting Member

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    First let me say that I support the whole "melting pot" theory that our imigration policies have been based on, heck, my great grandparrents came through Ellis Island in the late 1800s just like most of the folk's elders did here.

    BUT...

    To stay as high-roadish as possible, let's just say there comes a time when a series of M2s with thermal optics become necessary.

    I say reopen Ellis Island, make one in LA and another in El Paso and let them follow the same rules and guidlines everyone else has for the last 200 years.
     
  16. wingman

    wingman Member

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    Problem is we no longer live in the 1800's when ma and pa could move here raise 6 kids and not be a burden on the "system" this is no longer
    true, states along the southern border are struggling to keep hospitals
    open, schools are over crowded and looking for new funding "taxes",
    crime by illegals on the rise, building more prisons to house them, cost
    to "all" taxpayers is somewhere around $2400 per year,"stats I have read".

    It really comes down to how many we can pay for, at what point will it
    affect the quality of life of all Americans to the point that a backlash occurs.

    The Mexican Government is using the American taxpayer as a source
    of revenue and dumping in many cases the worst of their citizens.
    Our rich dont care because it"s a source of cheap labor. Like it or not
    it's a no win for the average Joe in this country. We cannot cotnrol our
    future/security until we decided that we will/can control our borders and
    most of all controlled "legal" immigration.
     
  17. Crownvicman

    Crownvicman Member

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    So, let me get this straight. The Mexican government is complaining that agents of the US government are using non-lethal weapons to defend themselves from Mexican criminals? If the Mexican government keeps their criminals on their side of the border the "problem" is solved.
     
  18. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    They use terms like "racist", "xenophobic", and the Nazi analogy because it works. There of plenty of America hating leftist scum occupying prominent positions in our government who bend over and grab their ankles in response to this. THOSE (our employees) are the ones we need to ferret out and eliminate (from government 'service').
     
  19. foghornl

    foghornl Member

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    Would Sadot Sanchez perhaps prefer that our guys used thin metal jacketed bullets, filled with lead alloys? ? ? ? ?
     
  20. HankB

    HankB Member

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    Most of what I'd want to say has been said already by previous posters . . . whom I congratulate on keeping to The High Road, as my first inclination would be to go down the original Reuters column, point by point, and insert some distinctly "non-HighRoad-ish" comments. ;)

    What worries me MOST is that there are a great many OTM's - that's Other Than Mexican - foreign criminals using the wave of Mexican criminals as camouflage for their illegal entry to our country.

    The Bush administration knows this, and won't do a :cuss: thing to stop it.

    :cuss: :fire: :banghead: :barf:
     
  21. DesertEagle613

    DesertEagle613 Member

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    And the tricky part is that the OTM's are probably unarmed and lack identifying characteristics, aside from not speaking Spanish. So it's not like a citizen's group could do a stakeout and zap would-be terrorists when they cross the border. Either we need to better control the flow of people, or we're sitting ducks.

    PLEASE NOTE: I do not believe that simply crossing the border is reason for summary executions. Crossing the border while armed, on the other hand...
     
  22. Cyanide_357

    Cyanide_357 Member

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    This is probably a harsh response, but...

    I don't believe diplomacy... and if they are crossing illegally, we should assume they are terrorists and they should be shot on site.

    I am perfectly ok with people comming into this country legally, but not when they sneek in.
     
  23. BerettaNut92

    BerettaNut92 Member

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    Racist and xenophobic weapons? LOL!!!!

    Mommy, Average Guy's 1911 called me a ch***!!!! :rolleyes: :D
     
  24. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

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    Here's my solution: Electrified razor wire, a mine field 1 mile wide, more electrified razor wire, another half mile or so of hungry German Shepards, and one last fence of electrified razor wire. If they pass that, They are welcome to stay.
     
  25. wingman

    wingman Member

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    Impact of Mexican
    Immigration on Public Coffers

    So far, this report has generally concentrated on public service use by Mexican immigrants; however, this is only half of the fiscal equation. Immigrants also pay taxes to federal, state, and local governments. The CPS contains estimated federal income tax liabilities for those in the sample. These estimates are based on adjusted gross income, number of dependents, and other tax characteristics. These estimates are useful because they can provide some insight into the likely tax payments made by immigrants and natives. Because of their much lower incomes and their larger family size, Mexican immigrants pay dramatically less in federal income taxes than do natives. The March 2000 CPS indicates that in 1999, the average federal income tax payment by households headed by Mexican immigrants was $2,156, less than one third of the $7,255 average tax contribution made by native households. By design, the federal income tax system is supposed to tax those with higher income and fewer dependents at higher rates than those with lower income and more dependents. So the much lower income tax contributions of Mexican immigrants simply reflect the tax code and not some systematic attempt by Mexican immigrants to avoid paying taxes.

    In 1999, 74 percent of households headed by natives had to pay at least some federal income tax, compared to only 59 percent of Mexican immigrant households. Even if one confines the analysis to legal Mexican immigrants, the gap between their tax contributions and those of natives remains large. Using the same method as before to distinguish legal and illegal Mexican immigrant households, the estimated federal income liability of households headed by legal Mexican immigrants in 1999 was $2,538. Thus, the very low tax contribution of Mexican immigrants is not simply or even mostly a function of legal status, but rather reflects their much lower incomes and larger average family size.

    The much lower tax payments made by Mexican immigrants point to a fundamental problem associated with unskilled immigration that seems unavoidable. Even if Mexican Immigrants’ use of public services were roughly equal to natives, there would still be a significant drain on public coffers because their average tax payments would be much lower. While much of the fiscal concern centers on use of means-tested programs, clearly tax payments matter at least as much when evaluating the fiscal impact of Mexican immigration. Changing welfare eligibility or other efforts designed to reduce immigrant use of public services will not change the fact that Mexican immigrants pay significantly less in taxes than natives.

    While the above analysis provides some insight into the impact of Mexican immigrants on tax receipts at the federal level, it does not show the total fiscal impact of Mexican immigration. Over the last decade, a number of studies have attempted to estimate the total fiscal impact (tax payments minus services used) of immigrants on the United States at the federal, state, and local levels.

    The most comprehensive research on this subject was done by the National Research Council (NRC), which is part of the National Academy of Sciences. The study, conducted in 1997, found that more-educated immigrants tend to have higher earnings, lower rates of public service use, and as a result pay more in taxes than they use in services. In contrast, the NRC found that because of their lower incomes and resulting lower tax payments coupled with their heavy use of public services, less-educated immigrants use significantly more in services than they pay in taxes. The NRC estimates indicated that the average immigrant without a high school education imposes a net fiscal burden on public coffers of $89,000 during the course of his or her lifetime. The average immigrant with only a high school education creates a lifetime fiscal burden of $31,000. In contrast, the average immigrant with more than a high school education was found to have a positive fiscal impact of $105,000 in his or her lifetime. The NAS further estimated that the total combined fiscal impact of the average immigrant (all educational categories included) was a negative $3,000. Thus, when all immigrants are examined they are found to have a modest negative impact on public coffers. These figures are only for the original immigrant, they do not include public services used or taxes paid by their U.S.-born descendants.

    Using the fiscal analysis developed by the NRC, it is possible to roughly estimate the fiscal effect of adult Mexican immigrants on the United States. Applying the NRC’s estimates by educational attainment and age is possible because the NRC’s research is based on the same data as this study — the March Current Population Survey.28 Using the estimates developed by the NRC and based on the educational attainment and age of newly arrived adult Mexican immigrants in 2000, we find that the lifetime fiscal burden created by the average adult Mexican immigrant is $50,300.29 It should be pointed out that these figures were based on 1996 dollars. Adjusted for inflation, the fiscal burden would be $55,200 in 2000.

    Since a very large share of Mexican immigrants have little formal education, the fiscal burden they create seems unavoidable. The modern American labor market offers very limited opportunities for the unskilled — immigrant or native. It therefore should come as no surprise that they use a great deal more in public services than they pay in taxes during the course of their lives. While consistent with previous research as well as common sense, the large fiscal deficit created by Mexican immigration should sound a cautionary note to those who argue that there is no harm in allowing large numbers of unskilled workers from Mexico into the country. Even if employers wish to have access to unskilled immigrant labor, the cost to taxpayers indicates that for the nation this may not be wise. Mexican immigration becomes, in effect, a subsidy for employers of unskilled labor, with taxpayers providing services such as education, health insurance and medical care, and income-transfer programs such as the Earned Income Tax Credit to workers who, because of their low incomes, pay nowhere near enough in taxes to cover their consumption of services.
     
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