Michigan Bans Foster Parents From Carrying Concealed

[Speedo66]

Seems Michigan feels they have the right to deny a constitutional right to people desiring to become foster parents. In one case they told grandparents they would deny them the right to be foster parents for their grandchild if the grandfather carried a gun.

Here's an article about the controversy:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/...-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

 

[ontarget]

I have lived in MI for over 40 years and have never heard of this. Just goes to show how little most people know about the constant infringements on our rights. Too bad more of these regulations aren't out in the open.

 

[MedWheeler]

The director of Children's Rights, Sandy Santana says "Becoming a foster parent is not a right; it's a privilege."

It's also a privilege for a child to be welcomed into a foster home. I wonder how many are denied that privilege because good people are making the choice to retain their constitutional rights instead of choosing a "privilege."

 

[ontarget]

MedWheeler, that is a VERY good point considering they are constantly begging for more people to become foster families. Maybe they could stop excluding some of the greatest families that a child in need could ever ask for. Seems very ironic.

 

[vba]

Well that would be my impetus to NOT be a foster parent. Too bad for the kids, I was a foster child.

 

[Moparnut]

So you can no longer take care of your own family in MI? First off, foster kids should be given back to the family or closest relative who can show they can care for them properly. I understand some kids in foster care are really messed up. I understand trying to protect them, but how is a foster parent supposed to protect these children if worse comes to worse? Next it will be ,"Do you own a knife, bat, hammer or shovel?" Own those and no being a foster parent. Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[jmr40]

They don't allow prison guards to carry firearms when they are working in areas around prisoners either. I taught school for 30 years and dealt with several kids living in foster homes every year. Some are great kids, many are so broken by the time the foster parents get them that there is little or no hope to save them. And most homes have multiple kids.

#1, I don't have what it takes to be a foster parent. I just couldn't do it.

#2, If I did, all the guns would be out of the house for the same reasons they don't allow guards to carry guns around the prisoners. I don't need a law to tell me what is the smart thing to do.

 

[MEHavey]

Points -- that I had not previously considered -- taken.

That said, to prevent a grandparent from taking in his grandson without
any consideration of potential threat by the grandson as a matter of
"...no reason/just policy," strikes me as slightly nuts.

 

[Jim NE]

Yeah, it's a sad situation. I doubt that there's much that can be done about it. Why? People have the constitutional right to own and carry guns, but they don't have the constitutional right to be a foster parent. I'm playing devil's advocate here, not necessarily giving my personal opinion.

You have the constitutional right to own and view pornography under the first amendment (the courts have said) but do you think that foster parenting programs are going to use foster parents who are openly enthusiastic about pornography? Especially if the foster child comes from a sexually abusive home life? I'm guessing not, and maybe they shouldn't. It sounds like the rules being made about foster parenting requirements are sort of at the discretion of the agency. Sometimes that discretion isn't well founded, though.

That said, to prevent a grandparent from taking in his grandson without
any consideration of potential threat by the grandson as a matter of
"...no reason/just policy," strikes me as slightly nuts.

I agree with that. It also seems like a grandparent should have claim to raising a grandchild in a legal sense that a random foster parent wouldn't.

 

[fpgt72]

They don't allow prison guards to carry firearms when they are working in areas around prisoners either. I taught school for 30 years and dealt with several kids living in foster homes every year. Some are great kids, many are so broken by the time the foster parents get them that there is little or no hope to save them. And most homes have multiple kids.

#1, I don't have what it takes to be a foster parent. I just couldn't do it.

#2, If I did, all the guns would be out of the house for the same reasons they don't allow guards to carry guns around the prisoners. I don't need a law to tell me what is the smart thing to do.

I was a foster parent, My son was adopted from "the system".

And yes everything was locked up tight E-V-E-R-Y T-H-I-N-G.

If you have never been around these kids or the "system" you have no idea how things work and just how these people are....to say it is messed up is a HUGE understatement.

It is a smart thing to do.....we actually had snap inspections....DFS would show up and want to take a look inside.....ok....well just ignore the dead hooker and the blow over there and have a look around (for some reason they did not find that funny)

There are good kids, and after you get things setup you MIGHT get lucky and get a "good" kid. My son started shooting at about 7 and I never really worried too much about him....besides the normal teenage stuff (he is 20 now and living on his own)....I was more worried about girls then guns.....no dad with his 16 year old son wants to hear....hay dad how much does it take to get a girl pregnant.....ahh what.....you know dad...how much....less then a drop.

Get a kid early enough, and you have good chances on raising a "normal hormone filled teenager".

The stories I could tell about the system will make your head spin.

 

[Sniper66]

The do-gooders strike again.....and are so proud of themselves.

 

[Bang!]

If parents can no longer care for a child, how is it not the grandparents rights to be next in line to do so? How is it not a right for families to take care of the family member? You have to ask for permission from the state to assume responsibility of your grandchild? Taking care of family is not a "privilege", it's a responsibility.

Looks like another attempt by an over reaching "anti 2nd" government peon to further a death by a thousand cuts agenda attack on the 2nd Amendment.

Taking care of their family and fighting for their rights. These grandparents sound like my kind of people.

 

[MedWheeler]

There is a huge difference between fostering a single child (especially one's own grandson!) and working as a prison guard. I would never volunteer to "foster" an inmate, or an entire cell block of them, in my own home.

There has to be a provision for reviewing circumstances of each case. There is a lot of room to wiggle in between having one's gun collection lying around on various tables in the house, and having a P32 in the pocket and anything else locked up in a safe.

fpg72, I take it your son was "adopted from the system" prior to his seventh birthday?

No, I will never foster a child. While I believe that my wife, daughter, and I could provide a safe and productive home, I would not be able to reconcile a state requirement that I give up my right to provide yet another protective measure for my household and all of its members. On top of that, my wife is Russian, and it's just not in their culture (other than with family, in which cases they are even more inclined than we Americans seem to be at times.) She is a grade-school teacher, and the stories she has would make you want to foster them all...

 

[RPRNY]

I was a foster parent in CO. During the home visit, the county noted reloading bench etc., and said only "We need any and all guns locked up and inaccessible to anyone but you and your wife at all times. We noticed a bedside safe, which is also good practice." They did not ask about or discuss CCW. They were far more prickly about insisting on a roll down fire ladder for the upstairs bedroom...

 

[fpgt72]

There is a huge difference between fostering a single child (especially one's own grandson!) and working as a prison guard. I would never volunteer to "foster" an inmate, or an entire cell block of them, in my own home.

There has to be a provision for reviewing circumstances of each case. There is a lot of room to wiggle in between having one's gun collection lying around on various tables in the house, and having a P32 in the pocket and anything else locked up in a safe.

fpg72, I take it your son was "adopted from the system" prior to his seventh birthday?

No, I will never foster a child. While I believe that my wife, daughter, and I could provide a safe and productive home, I would not be able to reconcile a state requirement that I give up my right to provide yet another protective measure for my household and all of its members. On top of that, my wife is Russian, and it's just not in their culture (other than with family, in which cases they are even more inclined than we Americans seem to be at times.) She is a grade-school teacher, and the stories she has would make you want to foster them all...

He was 7 when he was adopted....it was not long after he became "official"....all the court stuff, new SS#, new name(s), the amount of paperwork is just insane....IIRC he became "official"....that is just what we called it....we have a few extra holidays in our house....the got-ya day and the official day.

Anyhoo......

We went shooting about 6 months after his official day....he also got his first motorcycle that summer....I really sent him down the devils path.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Oklahoma DHS tried that just a few months ago. A married foster parent couple took it public, threatened to take DHS to court.
DHS backed off in about 2 days. DHS tried that " it's just policy", then changed to "it's not DHS policy, it's that particular employee's policy" ,
Then changed to the old standby - "It was a misunderstanding by the employee about DHS policy."

These antigunners will use any excuse to rob you of your constitutionally protected rights.

 

[JeffG]

These are examples of why I would not open my family or personal life to ANY kind of government scrutiny. This includes healthcare questionnaires, HOV, zoning commissioners or any one else.

 

[Tinpig]

No grandparent should be made to jump through hoops for trying to do right by his grandchild. It's especially bad that he's being told he must give up constitutional rights in order to do the right thing for his family.

But, reading the story, I come away with the impression that this particular guy is not helping himself much.

The issue over which he's suing the state seems to be the denial of his right to carry concealed as a foster parent. Good for him. So why throw fuel on the fire by allowing yourself to be photographed while open carrying? He may have every right to do so under Michigan law, but why exercise a right if it's bound to antagonize the foster care agency? In this day and age, the cigarette in his hand probably doesn't help either. I think he needs to decide whether his goal is to tweak the nose of meddling state bureacrats, or to get his grandson home. If it's the latter, he may want to lie low while the suit is pending.

Sad to say, most of us who live in un-free states learn to do this. I have to show up for an interview with my town police chief every six years to renew my LTC. I won't crawl through the door, but I am very careful about my appearance, demeanor, and behavior. The chief has wide latitude to deny for "unsuitability" so I'm always meticulous about following our nonsensical state gun laws, and all other laws, to the letter. It may stick in my craw to have to do so, but the end goal, my LTC, is important enough for me to play this distasteful game. Meanwhile I'll work hard through Mass. GOAL, the NRA, and my elected representatives to get our bad laws changed.

Tinpig

 

[fpgt72]

It is the same with about anything the guberment gets their hands on.....know there is a problem....do nothing about it, then when it goes public get all crazy with the laws and turn everything on its ear.

Check out Tennessee children's home black market baby deal and you will (IMHO) see where it all started.

And truth be known I think this is where my Aunt and Uncle came from.

Edit to say...

This IS where my aunt and uncle came from.

Not sure how much longer this thread will stay open...I hope it does, it is a chance to educate.

 

[grampajack]

Before we go distinguishing rights from privileges, stop and think how many other things are privileges in the eyes of the court. Driving for one. Flying on a plane. So, needless to say, if the government is allowed to hold "privileges" hostage in exchange for rights, then they can pretty much rule our lives. If you can't drive and fly then you certainly can't earn money, which means you can't pay your property taxes. Basically the courts have decided that walking out your front door is a privilege, at which point you give up most of your rights already.

Today it's a relatively rare and obscure privilege and a right that most people don't exercise. What will it be tomorrow? We already have to give up our fourth amendment rights to get on a plane. How long will it be before we have to give them all up to so much as board a bus? BTW, the local bus system here is a gun free zone. So apparently paying to get on a bus full of homeless people and gang bangers, subsidized by my own tax dollars, is a privilege.

And when did raising your own grandchildren in the absence of their parents become a privilege? Or even a nephew, cousin, etc?

 

[vba]

Well that would be my impetus to NOT be a foster parent. Too bad for the kids, I was a foster child.

Oh, I forgot, my foster father had guns and would go coon hunting on occasion. I lived there from 3 to 5 years old and was forever scarred because he let me hold one of his guns

 

[TN Outlaw]

Before we go distinguishing rights from privileges, stop and think how many other things are privileges in the eyes of the court. Driving for one. Flying on a plane. So, needless to say, if the government is allowed to hold "privileges" hostage in exchange for rights, then they can pretty much rule our lives. If you can't drive and fly then you certainly can't earn money, which means you can't pay your property taxes. Basically the courts have decided that walking out your front door is a privilege, at which point you give up most of your rights already.

Today it's a relatively rare and obscure privilege and a right that most people don't exercise. What will it be tomorrow? We already have to give up our fourth amendment rights to get on a plane. How long will it be before we have to give them all up to so much as board a bus? BTW, the local bus system here is a gun free zone. So apparently paying to get on a bus full of homeless people and gang bangers, subsidized by my own tax dollars, is a privilege.

And when did raising your own grandchildren in the absence of their parents become a privilege? Or even a nephew, cousin, etc?

Agree 100%^^^

Well said

 

[olkowsr]

So... Does this mean you cannot legally carry a concealed weapon in Michigan in the presence of a foster child?
- Foster parent or not?

J/w

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

My conversation with FL DCF when I was seeking full custody of my kids-

DCF Agent: "Do you own firearms?"
Me: "Yes."
"For what purpose?"
"Excuse me?"
"Hunting, self defense....?"
"I am exercising my 2nd Amendment rights under the United States Constitution."
(Rolls eyes) "May I see them?"
"No."
"Are they locked up and secure?"
"Yes."
"Are you sure?"
"Yes."
"Well, they better be....."
"They are."

Ugh.

 

[ontarget]

For custody of YOUR kids? Wow. Shocked but not really surprised.