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MicroBalrog vs. Tom Mauser: The Battle Rages On

Discussion in 'Legal' started by MicroBalrog, Jul 14, 2003.

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  1. MicroBalrog

    MicroBalrog member

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    My letter to Tom Mauser

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Boris Karpa
    To: safemauser@yahoo.com
    Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:35 AM
    Subject: Guns: an opinion from Israel


    Dear Sir!

    First, let me say, that I live in Israel, a country with tough gun control laws. I'm interested in the gun control debate, and I've read your column, and your responses to your reader's letters. Let me comment on some of them:


    "it was revealed that the parts for a load indicator cost only about 8c and those for a magazine disconnect safety cost about 11c".

    A magazine disconnect safety is very unsafe, as it can malfunction to prevent your gun from firing when it most needs too.

    Load indicators might be good (I'm not very familiar with gun design), but it seems to me they are not very necessary, as people who would use a gun responsibly, would follow the Four Safety Rules and always treat the gun as if it was ready to fire, and never aim it at something or someone they didn't want to shoot, thus rendering it safe. An irresponsible operator would not be aided by the load indicator.

    "When it comes to “terrorism,†guns are the bigger culprit in America".

    Guns are not the culprit. Criminals are the culprit. If guns were the culprit, California, Washington D.C., and Massachusets would be the safest areas in the world.

    "Dr. Daniel P Johnson tells me that Klebold and Harris “could just as well have used bombs, knives, poisons, etc.†But the fact is, Doctor, that they did NOT."

    Sir, even though I feel sincere grief about the death of your son, I would point out one thing: according to federal legislation, nobody could legally possess a gun withing 300 feet of Columbine High School when your son was murdered. Nobody could have saved him. In my country, after having several attacks on schools, we made it obligatory for all schools to be guarded by armed guards, and we handed out gun licenses to some of our teachers. We never had a shooting in any Israeli school again. The "Armed Teacher program" seems to have worked far better than any "Gun-Free Schools act" ever will.

    "Answer this: if a terrorist used dynamite to blow something up, wouldn’t you be a bit concerned about how they got it? Might you not be mad at a dynamite seller?"

    No, unless there's proof that the dynamite seller knew aforehand that the person buying the dynamite is a terrorist. The legislation that's designed to protect gun dealers from recless lawsuits has an exception in it from suits where there's evidence that the dealer knowingly committed an illegal sale. And in return, riddle me this: The Oklahoma Bombing was done with a truckful of fertilizer. You don't expect anyone to sue the fertilizer seller, right?

    "If so, then I guess you don’t mind giving them the free ticket of immunity, but I think most Americans would disagree once given the facts."

    The "immunity" bill is not a free ticket, as it still allows suing people over faulty product or illegal sales.

    "But I never heard ANY of you claim they had any significant increase in gun homicides!"

    I think it's a case of miswording. Obviously, gun homicide is irrelevant. The UK has seen an increase in total homicides, and so did Australia. If you wish, I can refer you to the appropriate sources. However, it is interesting to see that these countries have seen a slight increase in gun homicides as well.

    "How can gun activists say the proliferation, glorification and easy access of guns aren't factors?"

    They probably are, but they're positive factors. Remember that a disproportionate amount of gun crime happens in parts of the US with tough gun control. Also, I think you should consider the fact that in the early 20th century, when the Free World had almost no gun control, these countries still had less crime than the USA. Banning and heavy regulating of guns only caused crime to rise.
    Another contributing factor is the evil heritage of racism: the fact that a disproportionate amount of African-American still lives in squalid conditions, poverty, and lacks appropriate access to educatoin, thus a disproportionate amount of gun violence is "black-on-black" violence. I'm not trying to be racist here, and the issue is not a "race issue", it's an economics issue. Take a group of WASP's, and treat them like African-Americans were treated for such a long- and you'll get yourself a load of trouble.

    "because one kid in a gun control country goes on a shooting spree, that means that gun control is a failure?!? "
    You would be correct, except that's not the only time that happened in Europe, and a lot of people go on killing sprees with items other then guns. Last year, someone drove an SUV into a crowd of Israelis, killing 7. I don't remember the press covering that, either.

    Please, feel free to comment on my letter. I'll be pleased to clarify any points I have made.
    Please do not take any of the above points as an expression of disrespect to the tragedy that happened to you and your family.
    Sincerely Yours,
    Boris Karpa,
    Bat-Yam, Israel
     
  2. dinosaur

    dinosaur Member

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    A good reply but I`m sure you noticed a lack of similar replies quoted by him. I`ll wager yours will also be ignored as it`s easy to rebutt the idiots but not the facts.

    I wonder what the ratio of thoughtful replies to name calling there actually were. It`s almost useless to argue with someone with an agenda and has control of it.
     
  3. Tropical Z

    Tropical Z Member

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    He'll never read it.Mauser is the :evil: and as clueless as they come.
     
  4. Ian

    Ian Member

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    He'll probably read it and might even respond to it, but you won't get anywhere. A bunch of people, myself included, have gotten into discussions with Mauser, and he is such a 'true believer' that you'll never convince him of anything. If banging your head against a wall is enjoyable (which it can be, I suppose) then go for it, but know what you're in for.
     
  5. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    If leftist extremists were capable of reason and intellectual maturity, they'd be conservatives, not leftist extremists.
     
  6. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

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    Just post his responses on the web, thereby allowing him to out himself for the irrational and close-minded person that he is. I saw some of the responses he sent to Ian, and the man is downright unpleasant.
     
  7. Ian

    Ian Member

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  8. Diesle

    Diesle Member

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    This Tom Mauser ...? Sounds like a real dingle berry to me. Why are you wasting your time with that guy?

    Diesle
     
  9. Tropical Z

    Tropical Z Member

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    He IS a dingle berry!!!:p
    I havent heard that term used in AGES!!!:D
     
  10. Ed Straker

    Ed Straker Member

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    Next time, ask him how it feels to be paid $73,000 a year to pimp his dead kid.
     
  11. Stickjockey

    Stickjockey Member

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    Followed Diesle's link. It sounds to me like the perfect opportunity to call for more firearms safety instruction in school:evil: :rolleyes:
     
  12. MicroBalrog

    MicroBalrog member

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    Tom Mauser

    Mr. Karpa:

    You ended your letter asking me not to take "take any of the above points as an _expression of disrespect to the tragedy that happened to you and your family." OK, I won't, but I will take your letter as an attempt to badger me. Frankly, I've heard all your points before, and even addressed some of them in that letter you referenced. I find them weak and illogical.

    For example, you said "magazine disconnect safety is very unsafe, as it can malfunction to prevent your gun from firing when it most needs too..." So are the attorneys of manufacturers who are installing them fools? And what evidence do you have of malfuinctions? Or is the disconnect safety just a threat to the machismo and bravado of tough gun owners?

    In Europe you said "a lot of people go on killing sprees with items other then guns." How many? Are there mass knifings? Drive-by strangulations? Come on, look at the #s of gun deaths in comparison. For the UK and Australia you said, "Obviously, gun homicide is irrelevant." Excuse me? You're trying to dismiss my whole point! How dare you? The point is, would you rather 100 gun homicides/year or 11,000? Do the math! "it is interesting to see that these countries have seen a slight increase in gun homicides as well." Slight? 5? 10? Get real! The #s in the US are staggering in comparison--a few more murders there are nothing in comparison. You're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, as we say in the US.

    You blame the US problem on racism and economics. Oh please. You sound like Charlton Heston in "Bowling for Columbine", where he blamed it on "mixed ethnicity." Oh yeah, let's blame it on the blacks--even though most killers are white. Blame it on the minorities. You tried to reduce your bigotry by adding the economic factor. But do you think there aren't economic disparities and poverty in the UK? Or Germany? Do you think there are no minorities in those countries? Do you not think there is a history of racism in Australia and Canada? Get real. You ignore the obvious--that one of the biggest (though not the sole) differences is how America treats guns and gun laws. But people like you will never acknowledge that. People who worship guns are not about to admit such a thing.

    That's why I won't bother to answer any more of your questions. I'm not afraid. I take delight in it, as I'm sure my son would if he were here. He was very logical. But I would rather spend my time with my family and worshiping God, not hung up on defending a "weapon of mass destruction." I spend little time answering the questions of people whose minds are made up and wish to badger me. We'll just have to agree to disagree and then seek out the support of the rest of the population.

    My goal, Mr. Karpa, is to invest my time on the many millions of Americans who are in the middle on this issue. People like the 70% here in Colorado who voted for a gun control ballot issue in 2000. 70%! When we let the people decide, they turned down the NRA. That's who I am trying to educate and influence. They will decide these issues, not those of us on the two opposite ends. And I'm convinced that over time they will come to my side of the issue, because they are seeing it's not just "criminals" who are the problem. I LIVE here in the US, Mr. Karpa, and I read the newspaper thoroughly. You should see just how many of our gun deaths are the result of husband shooting wife, disgruntled worker shooting co-workers, student get revenge on students, road rage shooters, disturbed teens using their own parents' easily accessible guns to blow their brains own in a suicide, etc. It's no longer just the typical "ciminal" any more, and Americans are understanding that. It's all around us. Meanwhile my opponents will continue their futile attempt to explain away the shameful 11,000 gun deaths of each year. Good luck.

    Tom Mauser

    Boris Karpa <karpa@netvision.net.il> wrote:
    I sent this to you before and you have't responded.
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Boris Karpa
    To: safemauser@yahoo.com
    Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:35 AM
    Subject: Guns: an opinion from Israel


    Dear Sir!

    First, let me say, that I live in Israel, a country with tough gun control laws. I'm interested in the gun control debate, and I've read your column, and your responses to your reader's letters. Let me comment on some of them:


    "it was revealed that the parts for a load indicator cost only about 8c and those for a magazine disconnect safety cost about 11c".

    A magazine disconnect safety is very unsafe, as it can malfunction to prevent your gun from firing when it most needs too.

    Load indicators might be good (I'm not very familiar with gun design), but it seems to me they are not very necessary, as people who would use a gun responsibly, would follow the Four Safety Rules and always treat the gun as if it was ready to fire, and never aim it at something or someone they didn't want to shoot, thus rendering it safe. An irresponsible operator would not be aided by the load indicator.

    "When it comes to “terrorism,†guns are the bigger culprit in America".

    Guns are not the culprit. Criminals are the culprit. If guns were the culprit, California, Washington D.C., and Massachusets would be the safest areas in the world.

    "Dr. Daniel P Johnson tells me that Klebold and Harris “could just as well have used bombs, knives, poisons, etc.†But the fact is, Doctor, that they did NOT."

    Sir, even though I feel sincere grief about the death of your son, I would point out one thing: according to federal legislation, nobody could legally possess a gun withing 300 feet of Columbine High School when your son was murdered. Nobody could have saved him. In my country, after having several attacks on schools, we made it obligatory for all schools to be guarded by armed guards, and we handed out gun licenses to some of our teachers. We never had a shooting in any Israeli school again. The "Armed Teacher program" seems to have worked far better than any "Gun-Free Schools act" ever will.

    "Answer this: if a terrorist used dynamite to blow something up, wouldn’t you be a bit concerned about how they got it? Might you not be mad at a dynamite seller?"

    No, unless there's proof that the dynamite seller knew aforehand that the person buying the dynamite is a terrorist. The legislation that's designed to protect gun dealers from recless lawsuits has an exception in it from suits where there's evidence that the dealer knowingly committed an illegal sale. And in return, riddle me this: The Oklahoma Bombing was done with a truckful of fertilizer. You don't expect anyone to sue the fertilizer seller, right?

    "If so, then I guess you don’t mind giving them the free ticket of immunity, but I think most Americans would disagree once given the facts."

    The "immunity" bill is not a free ticket, as it still allows suing people over faulty product or illegal sales.

    "But I never heard ANY of you claim they had any significant increase in gun homicides!"

    I think it's a case of miswording. Obviously, gun homicide is irrelevant. The UK has seen an increase in total homicides, and so did Australia. If you wish, I can refer you to the appropriate sources. However, it is interesting to see that these countries have seen a slight increase in gun homicides as well.

    "How can gun activists say the proliferation, glorification and easy access of guns aren't factors?"

    They probably are, but they're positive factors. Remember that a disproportionate amount of gun crime happens in parts of the US with tough gun control. Also, I think you should consider the fact that in the early 20th century, when the Free World had almost no gun control, these countries still had less crime than the USA. Banning and heavy regulating of guns only caused crime to rise.
    Another contributing factor is the evil heritage of racism: the fact that a disproportionate amount of African-American still lives in squalid conditions, poverty, and lacks appropriate access to educatoin, thus a disproportionate amount of gun violence is "black-on-black" violence. I'm not trying to be racist here, and the issue is not a "race issue", it's an economics issue. Take a group of WASP's, and treat them like African-Americans were treated for such a long- and you'll get yourself a load of trouble.

    "because one kid in a gun control country goes on a shooting spree, that means that gun control is a failure?!? "
    You would be correct, except that's not the only time that happened in Europe, and a lot of people go on killing sprees with items other then guns. Last year, someone drove an SUV into a crowd of Israelis, killing 7. I don't remember the press covering that, either.

    Please, feel free to comment on my letter. I'll be pleased to clarify any points I have made.
    Please do not take any of the above points as an expression of disrespect to the tragedy that happened to you and your family.
    Sincerely Yours,
    Boris Karpa,
    Bat-Yam, Israel



    Tom Mauser
    Remembering Daniel always, at www.DanielMauser.com



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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    Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
     
  13. MicroBalrog

    MicroBalrog member

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    Me and Tom Mauser

    Mr. Mauser:

    I have never intended to badger you. I have responded to all your points and could, again. I wouldn't even BOTHER, except that you accused me of bigotry. I'm Jewish. My parents, my grandparents, have suffered more from bigotry than you can ever imagine - so don't tell me about bigotry.

    The attorneys? The attorneys do that because of the threat of silly lawsuits. Don't you think other companies did the same stuff to avoid stupid lawsuits on other issues? Or that no faulty guns were made before?

    Yup, there are are mass killings in Europe. (Try doctor Shipman and his 200+ victims, not a shot fired). And yes, gun homicide is irrelevant. Total homicide is relevant. What if the difference, pray tell, between being killed by a gun or being killed by a knife? Finally, can you point me to one single research proving that what you're proposing will work? Because no sane scientist thinks that there's any crime reduction due to gun control (Colin Greenwood (UK), Valeri Polozov (Russia), John Whitley (Australia) are a few examples I could give). There might or not be a negative influence (maybe crime increases due to gun control, maybe it doesn't). I would point out the UK, Australia, and a few other countries that had a "significant increase" in total murder rates, though. But it's not relevant - you're the one promoting "reasonable limits" to people's liberty - so the burden on proof is on you.

    On racism. Now have you even read my letter? Because I'm starting to doubt it. You actually are factually incorrect, because minority members commit a disproportionate amount of violent crimes. Now, why saying this doesn't mean I'm being racist? Because I have NOT blamed it on the blacks. I have blamed it on the whites. The USA has a history of racism unlike any other country. Think of the KKK, think of segregation, think of slavery, think of all the more hidden racist actions being committed right now. Want to stop crime? Make sure the people in those "inner-city ghettos" are properly employed. And that's not about blacks, that's about whites. And I'm not really sure what Heston said in "Bowling" - see, they cut out 20 out of 25 minutes of the interview. So until Moore grows a conscience and releases the raw footage, we won't know. As to "the only difference" - please prove that the measures you suggest would work. Have they worked in the UK? Have they worked in Russia? Have they worked in Israel, Australia, Sweden? No.

    Let me put it like this: the opinion of the majority doesn't matter. The majority executed Socrates. The majority voted for Hitler. Not everything is the majority opinion. The majority isn't "always right". Besides which - how did Colorado end up having that nifty state pre-emption law and CCW law you have now? Wasn't that decided by the majority?

    I read US newspapers a lot, and maintain active contact with some who write for them. By now, practically everybody knows that the average US murderer is a person with previous arrests and convictions and that most US murders have previous criminal background (shootings over turf). Newspaper often misrepresent reality by choosing what they print. Who'd read endless "drug dealer shoots competitor" and "junkie kills unarmed victim for spare change" stories? However "office worker freaks out" are more readable and sell more issues. Which are really more common? Ask the FBI people. On the other hand, here's some nice stuff I can find in US papers:

    Double Murder Suspect Captured in Texas
    Courageous pizza operators fight back, foil attempted robberies (IL & OH)
    Would-be victim thwarts robbery (IN)
    Man defends himself against former girlfriend's jealous lover (MI)
    Seattle Store owner Shoots Robber.

    That's just from a short two-minute search. Is my point clear?

    The people murdered in history can be visualised as a football field. On the playing field are the people who where killled with guns when they where shooting back. On the seats are the people who were shot, gassed, murdered by street gangs or national government and couldn't defend themselves. They died because they couldn't have had a gun to defend themselves - or, in the case of children, because their adult relatives and friends couldn't fire a shot in defense. See those frail, haggard people over there, looking as if they haven't eaten for ages? See that woman? That's my grand-grandmother. Why, you ask? Aushwitz. See those people out there? That's my uncle. Why, you ask? Stalin. And see those Arab guys? Sabra nand Shatila. See that sharp-looking airline pilot? September, 11th. And here's all the school shooting victims, up there. Gun Free Schools Act. And yes, your son is there too.

    I'm not religious, sir. But I pray for one thing: that you never end up in a situation where you actually, desperately need a gun. I never want you, or any other person on this planet to ever need to say "I wish I had a gun right now".

    SY,
    Boris Karpa
    P.S. I don't own guns. I have also decided never to become member of the NRA - for ideological reasons.





    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Tom Mauser
    To: Boris Karpa
    Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 8:39 AM
    Subject: Re: did you get this?


    Mr. Karpa:

    You ended your letter asking me not to take "take any of the above points as an _expression of disrespect to the tragedy that happened to you and your family." OK, I won't, but I will take your letter as an attempt to badger me. Frankly, I've heard all your points before, and even addressed some of them in that letter you referenced. I find them weak and illogical.

    For example, you said "magazine disconnect safety is very unsafe, as it can malfunction to prevent your gun from firing when it most needs too..." So are the attorneys of manufacturers who are installing them fools? And what evidence do you have of malfuinctions? Or is the disconnect safety just a threat to the machismo and bravado of tough gun owners?

    In Europe you said "a lot of people go on killing sprees with items other then guns." How many? Are there mass knifings? Drive-by strangulations? Come on, look at the #s of gun deaths in comparison. For the UK and Australia you said, "Obviously, gun homicide is irrelevant." Excuse me? You're trying to dismiss my whole point! How dare you? The point is, would you rather 100 gun homicides/year or 11,000? Do the math! "it is interesting to see that these countries have seen a slight increase in gun homicides as well." Slight? 5? 10? Get real! The #s in the US are staggering in comparison--a few more murders there are nothing in comparison. You're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, as we say in the US.

    You blame the US problem on racism and economics. Oh please. You sound like Charlton Heston in "Bowling for Columbine", where he blamed it on "mixed ethnicity." Oh yeah, let's blame it on the blacks--even though most killers are white. Blame it on the minorities. You tried to reduce your bigotry by adding the economic factor. But do you think there aren't economic disparities and poverty in the UK? Or Germany? Do you think there are no minorities in those countries? Do you not think there is a history of racism in Australia and Canada? Get real. You ignore the obvious--that one of the biggest (though not the sole) differences is how America treats guns and gun laws. But people like you will never acknowledge that. People who worship guns are not about to admit such a thing.

    That's why I won't bother to answer any more of your questions. I'm not afraid. I take delight in it, as I'm sure my son would if he were here. He was very logical. But I would rather spend my time with my family and worshiping God, not hung up on defending a "weapon of mass destruction." I spend little time answering the questions of people whose minds are made up and wish to badger me. We'll just have to agree to disagree and then seek out the support of the rest of the population.

    My goal, Mr. Karpa, is to invest my time on the many millions of Americans who are in the middle on this issue. People like the 70% here in Colorado who voted for a gun control ballot issue in 2000. 70%! When we let the people decide, they turned down the NRA. That's who I am trying to educate and influence. They will decide these issues, not those of us on the two opposite ends. And I'm convinced that over time they will come to my side of the issue, because they are seeing it's not just "criminals" who are the problem. I LIVE here in the US, Mr. Karpa, and I read the newspaper thoroughly. You should see just how many of our gun deaths are the result of husband shooting wife, disgruntled worker shooting co-workers, student get revenge on students, road rage shooters, disturbed teens using their own parents' easily accessible guns to blow their brains own in a suicide, etc. It's no longer just the typical "ciminal" any more, and Americans are understanding that. It's all around us. Meanwhile my opponents will continue their futile attempt to explain away the shameful 11,000 gun deaths of each year. Good luck.

    Tom Mauser




    Tom Mauser
    Remembering Daniel always, at www.DanielMauser.com



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Do you Yahoo!?
    Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
     
  14. trooper

    trooper Member

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    Hi Boris,

    I'm impressed with the amount of work you put into this argument, but you probably won't convert a person who has lost his son to gun violence.

    Of course that doesn't mean he's right but emotionally he is way too involved to really think through this issue.

    Good writing on your side, though.

    Since the good man asked about mass killings in Europe: there have been two major school killings in Germany so far. One happened back in the '60s when we had fairly good gun laws. A guy entered a school with a spear and a homemade flame thrower and started killing students. An elderly gentleman heard the screams from the outside, got his .22 and administered one single headshot to the BG.

    The second one happened two years ago. Nobody was armed, the police was too late, and 17 people, including the killer, died.


    Regards,

    Trooper
     
  15. MicroBalrog

    MicroBalrog member

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  16. trooper

    trooper Member

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    Oh well... I've had my share of spirited debates with antis lately...

    Besides this, I'm a lazy bastard :)


    Regards,

    Trooper
     
  17. ojibweindian

    ojibweindian Member

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    I can't respond to this guy. I'd be cyber-screaming at the top of my lungs; not conducive to rational, logical, and impassioned debate.
     
  18. MicroBalrog

    MicroBalrog member

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    I kinda thought what I wrote was a cyber-scream...
    I just remember being absolutely enraged when I wrote it.
     
  19. semf

    semf member

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    My wife went through a similar tragedy as Mr. Mauser and I belive trooper is right and so is Mauser on one point he cannot be converted or reasoned with You and I know that guns are tools but to him they are a symbol of all that is wrong in the world and a reminder of what his son will never be.He can't be reasoned with by a stranger into thinking any other way. So leave him to his grief. I do however agree with countering any public attempts at demonizing guns. As he states in his letter he plans on converting all the fence sitters he can.
     
  20. MicroBalrog

    MicroBalrog member

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    I would if not his incessant efforts to promote gun control nuttery.
    The best I hope is that he stops actively promoting it - or that some fence sitter reads my letter.:D
     
  21. Ian

    Ian Member

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    Heh...I did this myself a year or two ago, and got about the same result. Did squeeze some good quotes out of him though (and he threatened to put exerpts from my letters up on his web site, but never did). I think Mauser's head would implode before he would convert.

    Here are the juiciest bits of my correspondence (I was Ceol Mhor on TFL).
     
  22. semf

    semf member

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  23. Harry Tuttle

    Harry Tuttle Member

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    Tom takes pieces of silver from Sarah to promote his windmill tilting.

    http://www.jaspar.net/_wsn/page3.html
     
  24. MicroBalrog

    MicroBalrog member

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    Harry Turtle: I have converted many true anti-gunners to the cause. :D

    Ian: Think I did well? I fear got my rage get over my better senses.
     
  25. Tamara

    Tamara Senior Member

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    Mr. Mauser doesn't want my letter.

    He doesn't want to know how the constant, maudlin harping of people like him has helped mold me into the callous, heartless jerk I am today.

    So his son got killed. Tough. That impacts me how? How exactly does someone rationalize taking away my guns, my beer, my car, my motorcycle, or my breakfast cereal all because their precious tyke met an untimely demise at the hands of some flake half a world away from me? Piss off, Tom; I didn't shoot your kid, so don't touch my stuff.
     
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