Middle-aged lady disarmed during traffic stop--SOP???

[WeThree]

My experience

I was pulled over on JTB here in Jacksonville, FL by a highway patrol officer.

Turns out my license AND tag were expired.. I was out of town for a few weeks and had a birthday. Stupid I know, but hey, it happens.

I pulled well of the roadway, shutoff my car, etc. He approached my right side and asked for my papers, which I had ready. I informed him I was a CWP holder and was carrying. (IWB on my right side).

He looked over my license/cwp/registration/insurance and had me step out... we went around the back of the car, he disarmed me, unloaded the weapon, ran my license, my cwp, and the gun's serial number. Said it was standard procedure to run the serials on any gun they handle.

How insane would I be to spend all the time and money getting a CWP, and then go buy a stolen gun to carry?!

Anyway, he placed my gun, magazine, and formerly chambered round on the front seat of my car. Gave me back my papers, told me to take care of it first thing monday. Said he appreciated that I was up front with him and that I let him know about the weapon.

I had mixed feelings... on one hand I felt like I was treated a bit like a criminal, on the other hand, I think he let me go on about $100 worth of tickets.

I've had good and bad experiences with the police, this one was kind of neutral.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

This guy, officer Gropatelli, should be the butt of jokes at the cop shop.

Big, strong, shaved head, Jesse Ventura like, getting all "Nervous", sorry, "uncomfortable" about a middle aged, 5'-3" polite babe with a shootin' iron.

Bad cop, no donut!

This thing about disarming law abiding citizens is way wrong. Somehow, some LEOs have gotten the mistaken impression that;
1) If you have a gun and
2) You are not a cop, then
3) You are a criminal.

Wrong!

Sorry, Mr. Sendec, but I have to tell another story about dumb cops.....

I was headed east inbound toward Paducah on US 60 and encountered a soberiety check in Kevil Ky in like 1996. This is the very first time that I was open carrying in my car and encountered a LEO. As I slowly approached the cops, (like in a line of maybe 3 cars ahead of me) I thunk, "what should I do? I could throw my jacket over my 1911 on the seat and try to slide by, (which I considered to be a risky behaviour, since I could be caught with a "concealed" weapon (which was, at the time a felony for me in MO)) or, I could just leave it on the seat and take my chances. I knew that Kentucky was an open carry state.

I wisely chose to just leave it on the seat in plain view.

When I pulled up to the nice, young, cop (Kevil, KY, local), he shined his maglight onto my piece and said, unbelievably, "Is that your weapon?"

I was scared $h!tle$$. I knew that I was gonna be in orange coveralls. He was asking a stupid question. I was the only occupant of the auto. I should have bitch slapped him and said "No, you dumb sumbitch, it's the other guy's", but, like I said I was scared $h!tle$$, so I said, "Yes, Sir".

He said, "In the future, sir, you should notify the officer as soon as possible that you are armed and if the officer requests, you should be prepared to hand your weapon over. by the barrell, to him so that he will not be (I can't remember whether he said "nervous, concerned, or whatever). I said, in the previously mentioned condition, "Yes, sir"

He didn't ask for my piece. If he had, I am afraid I would have had to respond, "I am sorry, sir, but I am unwilling to handle my weapon in your presence. I will, at your direction, exit my car, so that you may do what you need to do, but I will not touch my weapon in your prescence and I will not voluntarily surrender my weapon to you."

So he looked at my DL and said, "Ok, thanks, have a good evening" and I was on my way.

I was exstatic. I had just been in personal contact with a LEO, armed, and had not been arrested. Of course, I knew that no serious 2a proponent would voluntarily surrender their piece, but I further reasoned that the "instructions" that he had given me were pure BS.

If you get nothing else from my ramblin' post, PLEASE, do not handle your weapon in the prescence of LEOs. It is an accident waiting to happen. Otherwise. if you give your piece to them, they can claim that you voluntarily disarmed yourself. Never allow it. Make them do it to you without your permission.

I had been immunized. I knew then that the citizen was "allowed" to keep and bear arms. I have encountered several LEOs since then and with one exception, (In St. Louis, Mr. Sendec, I know you're reading this) no LEO has felt the need to make an issue out of my open carry.

Finally, Mr. HankB, you get to use the "cop a feel" terminology without raising the shackles of some of the more coplike apoligists on this forum. I feel discriminated against.

 

[Ellery Holt]

The Real Hawkeye writes:

Increasingly, the police are adopting the attitude and methods, when dealing with Americans, of an occupying army in a conquered land.

Who's often quoted with a statement like this, only going further and stating something about, "and if they behave that way we'll play our role too."

What strikes me is that even though there can be chicken and egg arguements made about that, the courts should squash it all -- punishments for JBT; an end to the war on drugs; and longer prision for street thugs.

 

[firearms_instructor]

"You could also avoid speeding." For your information, ladies and gentlemen, in the great (Officer Gropeatelli notwithstanding) state of Texas, speed limits are prima facie , not absolute. At least they were when I lived there. So the posted speed limit is prima facie evidence of a reasonable speed under average conditions. However, if every one else is going ten miles above the speed limit, it would not necessarily be reasonable or safe to go the speed limit. And having grown up in Texas I know that many municipalities use the speed limits for revenue enhancement. We'll never know if the other drivers were really endangered or not.

That having been said, I think it was incredibly stupid of said officer to stick his hand into Tam's pocket and rummage around for a pistol he has never seen. This stunt would've earned the deputy's supervisor a letter from me.

 

[RevDisk]

Quite frankly the amount of cop bashing on here gets iritating at times. Have any of you known what it feels like to deal with this crud? Quite frankly the lady in question put everyone at risk by speeding, forcing the officer to pull her over, forcing him to exit the car on a street etc....

Yes police officers do get grouchy, but I have a question, do YOU also not get grouchy at times? Do you get yelled at harrangued harrassed etc when you're trying to do your job? Come on people think for a minuete, NYC garbage men make more money starting the NYC cops.

I thought this was supposed to be The High Road, not "let's call all cops names and all citizens with CCW permits dont commit crime" By speeding the person in question was showing how immature she was.

I do agree the officer acted improperly by thrusting the radar detector into the car, but I have no opinion on him reaching to disarm her. Over the year's I've learned that sometimes officers have good reasons for what they do concerning weapons.

"Sorry sir, I accidently shot so and so, but dang it I was really grouchy at the time" Where I work, this is not a valid excuse. I'm sure everyone is happy that this incident ended without anyone getting shot accidently. Accidents happen, and are investigated. But part of being a professional is a level of emotiona detachment. If one gets grouchy on the job and it deeply affects one's performance, perhaps working with firearms for a living is not the right job.

I've worked with stopping smugglers carrying more than just pistols. I knew the risks, and I like to think I always maintained a proper level of decorum when I was on the job. Did I want to strangle someone time to time? Of course!

I have no opinion over the speeding. I do have an opinion with unsafe weapons practices. In such a circumstance, I think it would be best to cooperate fully with said police officer but if possible danger of a ND I'd be quick to point it out.

For some odd reason, I have a real aversion of a ND happening inside the confines of my pants.


Writing the the chief of police or said cop's supervisor to meantion possible unsafe practices is a wise idea. Can any LEO say they do not want ANY feedback on possible unsafe procedures? Shooting a law abidding civilian by accident is a rather bad thing in my opinion. Any safety concerns that are reasonably prudent should be looked at carefully, for cops or civilians.

Sorry, in my opinion, the lives of law abidding citizens are just as important as police officers. Moreso, if you consider that joining the PD means possibly getting injured or killed to protect said citizens. It's part of the job that police should understand when they join. Not something one likes considering, but it is.


(For the record, I am not a LEO but I have worked as a soldier in doing civilian-military operations. Think of it as playing cop with bigger weapons and funny looking uniforms. It's not the same thing, but I can see a few parallels.)

 

[DBK]

Since we only have your side of the traffic stop, we'll NEVER know what happened....

 

[Diggler]

Since we only have your side of the traffic stop, we'll NEVER know what happened....

I don't think it's necessary to accuse someone of lying without any basis for it.

On another note, how about this. As soon as you get your vehicle to a stop, and before he gets out of the patrol car, you and all your buddies hold your firearms out the windows by the bottom of the grip, between your thumb and index finger. Drop them on the pavement. Stick your hands out the windows, and yell "Don't shooooot, we're a-comin' out!" Open the doors slowly, keep your hands well in the air, and lay face down on the pavement with your hands out and your ankles crossed. If needed, he could hog-tie you (for safety).

 

[HankB]

M2HMGHB:

I know of not one cop who bother's pulling someone over for 5mph over the limit,

Lucky you. I was on a jury in traffic court a couple of years ago where a guy was ticketed for going 5mph over the limit.

But he wasn't groped, just ticketed.

 

[El Tejon]

I've never enountered this kind of behavior (Oh, no! A gun!) on the part of the police. However, I have lived a majority of my life in a very pro-CCW place where carrying a gun is just part of life and not a big deal.

My guess is that the po-po in Tejas will chill out over the years as they realize that the law-abiding citizens are not the problem. I see a huge shift in attitudes (from anti to pro) since I have been going down to Tejas with the no carry zones. I'd wager the "disarm provision" of Texas law becomes less used as the state slowly transforms into a gun friendly culture.

 

[Barbara]

The only time I've been stopped by the police since having a CPL was in Ohio right after their CCW law went into effect. As we didn't have reciprocity at the time, I wasn't carrying, but notified the officer right away. He smiled and said that was a good, but he didn't need to see my permit. After stories of the highway patrol searching vehicles, etc. I was sure relieved. I wasn't even late for work.

 

[Barbara]

Hey, the only ticket I've ever gotten was for going 5 mph over. He cut me a break, though. I was actually going 9 mph over the limit.

 

[Patent Works]

CCW or not, I am not surprised that an officer would want to disarm a person known to be carrying a handgun.

Has there EVER, in the history of mankind, been an instance in which a cop was harmed in a traffic stop by a CCW holder's gun? EVER? Even once?

If not, then there is no rational basis for disarming a CCW holder after seeing the permit.

 

[madcowburger]

PatentWorks,

Not one that know of.

If a cop knows an American has a permit, and knows that no "law" is being broken by the American being armed, then how is an American being armed even a police matter at all?

What's up with this weird insistence on "running the serial number to see if it's stolen" jazz? What's up with all this inexpert fiddling and fumbling with loaded guns, and with loaded guns changing hands? What's "safe" about that? *Whose* safety is enhanced by that? Not mine, that's for sure.

As for "just saying no" to speeding, try going 55 MPH on highways designed for 70 MPH traffic, on which everyone else is going 80-plus MPH.

5 MPH over the "speed limit" -- whoo! What a serious, scary crime! Better call out a SWAT team! Better yet, the National Guard! Shoot his tires out! Jump out in front of him and say he tried to run you over!

MCB

 

[Cabby]

Thank God the officer made it home safely to his family.

 

[El Rojo]

I suggest you call the department and ask if the officer can call you back. Now that the situation is over, give him feedback on how you think safety was handled on both sides. Worst case scenario is he is not cooperative at all and you can then contact his boss. Best case scenario he listens, thanks you for your input, and next time he pulls over a CHL he puts your input into practice.

 

[Sergeant Bob]

When he was groping around in your pocket for your gun you should have yelled......




















BANG!!!!

 

[Zundfolge]

The 4th amendment protects us from unreasonable searches and seizures (y'all knew someone would bring this up ).

I think its unreasonable to disarm a law abiding citizen licensed to carry during a routine traffic stop. Just as unreasonable as trying to say speeding is probable cause to search their car.


But its for officer safety!

Bovine Scat

An officer is less likely to be shot by a citizen licensed to carry then a fellow officer and they don't feel the need to disarm their brother officers.

An officer is probably more likely to be harmed or killed by a negligent discharge from handling an unfamiliar weapon then being shot by a citizen licensed to carry.

The reason officers where given discretion to disarm CHL holders is because its one of the little concessions given to the big city police chiefs and FOP thugs to get CCW passed. Its about "keeping the sheep in their place" not officer safety.

 

[Art Eatman]

I've had casual conversations with various CHL folks pulled over for speeding. This is the first time I've heard of an officer showing concern for the location of the gun, or perceiving it to be a safety issue.

In my one experience, the DPS Trooper showed no interest beyond the law's basic requirement, and handed the CHL back to me. In a friend's experience, a rather lengthy discussion of the relative merits of various pistols ensued--twice! And much to his wife's dismay. (She's also a CHLer.)

Off the cuff, it sounds like an Austintatious thing...

Art

 

[Diggler]

Maybe they're just exercising their Austin powers...

 

[answerguy]

Maybe they're just exercising their Austin powers...

Boo! Hiss!

 

[Watchman]

If a cop knows an American has a permit, and knows that no "law" is being broken by the American being armed, then how is an American being armed even a police matter at all?

It aint a "police matter".

Until you break the law, YOU aint a "police matter".





Fact of the matter is...the Police have NO jurisdiction over you until you break the law. However...the laws are numerous. Make sure you know the laws.

 

[JohnKSa]

Art,

I've had my CHL since they first became available and I drive about 25K a year and I habitually speed so I've been stopped a few times with my CHL. Maybe 5 times...

Here's exactly what has happened every time.

1. Hand officer DL and CHL.
2. Officer says: "Do you have the gun now/Are you armed."
3. I reply: "Yes."
4. Officer inquires as to location of pistol.
5. I answer.
6. Officer asks that I not move suddenly toward the location of the pistol.
7. Traffic stop continues from there.

 

[Art Eatman]

Hmmm. Interesting. Out of curiosity:

Locals? Sheriff? DPS?

Age: Young? Older?

All around Texas? Or, mostly in one area?

One of my buddy's more lengthy yak-sessions was after being stopped for towing his 30' travel trailer at 85 between Fort Stockton and Odessa (the awning tears off at 100)...

, Art

 

[Wildalaska]

Sigh...just another lets hate cops thread with gems from the usual suspects....

Of course my fav is this quote:

No, I don't really believe that kind of hogwildalaskawash.

from Mr. Ellery "I Got a Problem with Cops" Holt, far more reknowned for such gems (in all of his 26 posts) as:

I would like to remind folks that it's not fair to let the thuggish actions of 98% tarnish the image of the other 2% who are fine officers I trust.

My positive law enforcement experience?

I positively look forward to...

On second thought I better not.

I think a well intoned, "Go F--- yourself. Am I free to leave?" would be a fitting reply that recognizes my legal status as a citizen not a slave

As for the subject matter at hand, we only have one side of the story. As for me, never been disarmed yet. Cop want s to reach in me pocket and get my gun as long as he is polite about it, not gonna make a stink except to of course ensure that he is in fact following proper Departmental procedure. Thats done by mature letter to higher ups.

Of course if I was a law officer and reading all these threads, Id be inclined to disarm everybody. Never know when that supposedly law abiding "citizen" is gonna scream "Go f*ck yourself ya JBT, I aint a sheeple" and blow me away.

WildgunonwersaretheriownworstenemiesAlaska

 

[MichaelEzekiel]

The long hand that breaks our backs still casting shadows on all that we see...