Military Channel

[High Planes Drifter]

Spencer wrote:
Why the do you think Israel came up with the Galil? Because they were unsatisfied by the way the AR performed!

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No sir. Israel replaced the FN FAL (not M16) with the Galil, :

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/small_arms/galil/Galil.html

First sentence.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Dude the AR-15 isn't well suited at all for many other parts of the world. It's high tolerance doesn't allow any and I mean absolutely anything to be in the action or it will jam.

Why the do you think Israel came up with the Galil? Because they were unsatisfied by the way the AR performed!

Galil was essentially replaced by the AR, not the other way around.

You're rather overstating the AR's pickiness about being clean as well, at least in my personal experience with both issue M16s/M4s and privately owned AR-15s.

A good quality AK costs just as much as a reasonably priced AR, so I wonder why people are still buying them all the freakin time?

AR's a gunfighter's long gun. AK's an illiterate and disposable peasant's weapon (not the AK, the peasant).

Everyone else has chosen the AR? Oh, that's news to me. I guess that's why several countries have it on their flag, right?

I have a general rule, maybe "guideline" is a better term, that I only take weapons advice from national flags belonging to nations that can feed their population. Post-colonial African nations with AKs on their flag don't tend to meet this guideline.

Besides, they only have the AK on the flag because that's what they dropped while running when the guys with the FALs (and G3s and even occasional ARs) lit them up.

 

[GungHo]

1903 shouldn't be on that list either imo. It's a copy of the Mauser but with better sights. No innovation there. And didn't see combat except for WWI

It served as a precision rifle for a very long time.

I rolled my eyes a bit when Fathead McGee went over Garand "pinging" as a tactical nuisance/advantage.

 

[Spencer]

Galil was essentially replaced by the AR, not the other way around

Wrong.

"The development of the new assault rifle, that should eventually replace in service the ageing M16A1, CAR-15 and IMI Galil assault rifles, began in Israel in the 1991. The new rifle was developed by the Israel Military Industries (IMI, now TAAS) company, in close cooperation with the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF). This new rifle received the name of "Tavor" and the designation of TAR-21 (Tavor Assault Rifle, for 21st century). The new rifle first appeared on public in the 1998, and it had been tested by the IDF during 1999-2002. At the moment of writing (spring of 2003) there were no large purchases of the Tavor by the IDF, because of low funding, but late in the 2002 India signed an US $20M contract with IMI for undisclosed number of TAR-21 assault rifles and Galatz sniper rifles."

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/small_arms/tavor/Tavor.html

AR's a gunfighter's long gun. AK's an illiterate and disposable peasant's weapon (not the AK, the peasant).

Well, yeah, the AR is a good gunfighters gun if you don't care about clearing several jams during a gunfight.

Go to arsenalinc.com and see if these are 'disposable peasant's weapons'. Better built than any AR.

Several parts of an AR are made of aluminum, including the magazines (so easily bent, can anyone say bad idea?). Even though aluminum costs more than steel, whats the point, because aluminum is not anywhere near as durable as steel. That's why ARs have problems with wolf ammo, the steel cases are always wearing out the aluminum extractors. Not to mention the rest of the gun is plastic. Bad durability.

You're rather overstating the AR's pickiness about being clean as well, at least in my personal experience with both issue M16s/M4s and privately owned AR-15s.

Not at all.

Now, I'm all for America, and don't get me wrong, the AK is not my favorite gun. But I'm giving it props where its props are due, and that is in reliability and durability. The only thing you can give to the AR is accuracy.

 

[ny32182]

The AR extractor is made out of steel, which is much, much... much harder than the steel used in Wolf ammo, which is so mild that it can be easily scratched with a bullet tip. The only major aluminum parts of an AR that I'm aware of are the upper and lower, both of which will long outlast the barrel or bolt... both of which are steel. The only plastic parts on an AR are the outer part of the handguards, the pistol grip, and the stock, none of which are known to break.

As far as jamming all the time, I doubt I'm the only one here starting to think you've never fired one.

 

[Spencer]

The AR extractor is made out of steel, which is much, much... much harder than the steel used in Wolf ammo, which is so mild that it can be easily scratched with a bullet tip. The only major aluminum parts of an AR that I'm aware of are the upper and lower, both of which will long outlast the barrel or bolt... both of which are steel. The only plastic parts on an AR are the outer part of the handguards, the pistol grip, and the stock, none of which are known to break.

As far as jamming all the time, I doubt I'm the only one here starting to think you've never fired one.

Yes, I have fired an AR-15. We used to own 3. The times I shot, it didn't jam on me but I recall it jamming a few times on my dad. Then again, I didn't shoot it that much because I wasn't into guns.

It felt like a toy.

Have you ever fired or owned an AK-47? I doubt you have, most people are too biased to try one.

 

[ny32182]

Two dozen would be a conservative estimate.

 

[Spencer]

The number of AK-47s you've either shot or owned tells me you bought a lot of Chinese junk and that's why you weren't satisfied with it.

 

[ny32182]

My last AK was a VEPR K, an outstanding rifle.

I'm not bashing AK's at all, but I won't be the only one calling you out on the monumental pile of outright incorrect information you just posted about the AR. Time to do some reading.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Try carrying an AR and 210 rounds for a year, that will convince you to use one. Shots hitting center of mass are all too common at 450 to 500 yards. Actions always speak louder than words. The AR platform came a long way since it's induction into the Army and of all of my years of firing this platform I can count on my fingers the FTFs I've had. The M16A2 is even more reliable.

 

[toivo]

AR's a gunfighter's long gun. AK's an illiterate and disposable peasant's weapon (not the AK, the peasant).

Change "disposable" to "indestructible" and I'll agree. And I can't figure out why you want your gun to be able to read.

 

[selector67]

I have every gun on that list with the exception of the MP44 and the AUG.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Galil was essentially replaced by the AR, not the other way around

Wrong.

Sorry, you're still wrong. Note the use of the word "essentially."

The first M16s entered IDF service around the same time as the first Galils. Since that time it has entirely replaced the Galil as a front line rifle. Galil only remains in service as a personal defense weapon for AFV crews and the like. M16/M4/CAR-15 is the preferred, and pretty much exclusive, rifle for use by troops with actual job descriptions carrying the word "shooter."

Well, yeah, the AR is a good gunfighters gun if you don't care about clearing several jams during a gunfight.

Just for the purposes of clarification, how much experience do you have with the AR? I'm just wondering, since I'm not sure you're actually familiar with the same weapon system I've been issued in one form or another for the last 13 years.

Go to arsenalinc.com and see if these are 'disposable peasant's weapons'. Better built than any AR.

So you don't really know what makes a good CQB gun versus a bad one, then?

Yes, I have fired an AR-15. We used to own 3. The times I shot, it didn't jam on me but I recall it jamming a few times on my dad. Then again, I didn't shoot it that much because I wasn't into guns.

So you've fired an AR a couple times? Never carried one day in and day out, etc? I must defer to your exhaustive knowledge of the weapon system

Have you ever fired or owned an AK-47? I doubt you have, most people are too biased to try one.

Got about a dozen in my unit's arms room, various manufacturers, get a decent amount of ammo each year for foreign weapons familiarization and training. Wooden furniture might make them seem more solid. It does not, unfortunately, put the controls in the right place for use as a combat long gun, etc.

 

[HorseSoldier]

AR's a gunfighter's long gun. AK's an illiterate and disposable peasant's weapon (not the AK, the peasant).

Change "disposable" to "indestructible" and I'll agree. And I can't figure out why you want your gun to be able to read.

AK indestructible, yes.

But it's a weapon built for disposable troops, which is why it's popular (in certain circles) despite being poorly designed from an ergonomic standpoint. Speed is survival in gunfights, and AKs don't do a good job providing it.

 

[soul_rapier]

arsenal is a over price ak i own 1 a real 1 not made in the usa dont get me wrong i love my ak , and my ar .but that is an ak not worth $600 + dollars and any gun that is gas operated needs cleaning or it will jam i had AR's and ak's jam they all will and if you say they dont you havent shot them enough ......this is my opinion alot of people dont shoot enough and say stuff thats incorrect .i got 2 m14's and i listened to poeple saying how great they are and there not. jam and mag picky

 

[Metapotent]

Everyone else has chosen the AR? Oh, that's news to me. I guess that's why several countries have it on their flag, right?

Yeah all the poor, third-world countries that still use Soviet-era weapons...

Quote:
How in the heck did the M14 and Steyr AUG get above the G3?! The L85 and FAMAS even got honorable mentions without the G3 anywhere to be seen. What's up with that?


Because they did more than the G3 ever did.

And Heckler and Koch are anti-american.

Heckler and Koch are anti-American??? Thats funny, considering the extensive contracts they have with US military and law-enforcement agencies. Kind of odd for an anti-american company to do that... Also when you consider that many of their subsiaries are in the US and a large percentage of their employees in general are American.

Spencer, I think you're just pulling stuff out your you-know-what.

Especially when you come to the broad conclusion that all AR's jam all the time even though you have very little experience with them, and then you try and negate the experience people have with AKs saying that they just have "Chinese Junk" especially considering that most people say that the Chinese Ak-47s are of the best quality.

I had a Romanian and Yugoslavian AK. I sold them because they were innaccurate and ACTUALLY they jammed more than any of my 4 seperate ARs did. Also, my Bushmaster xm15 has been dropped in mud, rocks, water and sand and I've never had it jam due to 'dirt in the action' and its never froze up when shooting in cold weather or broken or anything like that.

So personally, I think you don't know *** you are talking about!

 

[Bigfoot]

I have no problem with them choosing the AK over the AR for the reasons they stated. Peasants shooting neglected firearms. But I did laugh when they said the lessor accuracy of the AK was offset by its ability to shoot lots of bullets. That's right loosers go ahead and spray and pray, makes it a little easier for our guys can aim and drop ya.

Steyr AUG? Gimme a break. I don't think ANY rifle should qualify for this list unless it has served in warfare. Everything on that list has been involved in serious combat across the globe except for the AUG. Nice rifle, but it seems out of place to me. G3 isn't a rifle with a huge service record, but it's more than the AUG.

The Austrailians kicked butt with the AUG in East Timor (no picnic there) and Iraq. And the AUG bullpup has shown us the future for military rifles like it or not. Not trying to nit-pic your designation of serious combat, I just like giving an attaboy to my pals the Aussies.

 

[benelli12]

**** I dont have the military channel :banghead:

 

[Creeping Incrementalism]

AUG in East Timor (no picnic there) and Iraq.

East Timor was a peacekeeping operation, so I don't know if you can call that "kicking butt", and the commandos who went into Iraq carried ARs, I believe. Though I have seem some photos of follow-on soldiers with AUGs.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the AUG, but you can't call it thoroughly combat proven.

 

[jjohnson]

Toivo: SMLE - Verdun - WWI

Yeah, pretty sure it was the battle of Verdun.... the Germans whined about all of the machineguns they were facing. It was a bunch of Tommies with SMLEs who knew how to work the bolt with their pinky (it can be done) for high rate of fire.

Ugly is as ugly does, I guess.

 

[toivo]

Yeah, pretty sure it was the battle of Verdun.... the Germans whined about all of the machineguns they were facing. It was a bunch of Tommies with SMLEs who knew how to work the bolt with their pinky (it can be done) for high rate of fire.

Thanks. IIRC, they called it "the magic minute"--30 aimed shots at 200 yds. in one minute.

 

[HorseSoldier]

East Timor was a peacekeeping operation, so I don't know if you can call that "kicking butt", and the commandos who went into Iraq carried ARs, I believe. Though I have seem some photos of follow-on soldiers with AUGs.

Yep. The SASR and the commando-role infantry battalion in the Australian Army use weapons from the AR-15 family. The SAS types because it's pretty much the industry standard for special operations units in the English speaking world (and many other parts as well). Interestingly enough in light of the current round of "AR-15s are jam-prone and picky" claims, I've been told by Australian military personnel that the infantry use of the AR is because it's been found to be more rugged and dependable than the AUG used by the majority of the Australian military (not sure if that's official reasoning, popular belief, or whatever though).

 

[RNB65]

The only people I've ever met who believed that AR's are jam-o-matics are people who either don't own one or don't know how to clean and maintain a rifle.

 

[hksw]

Because they did more than the G3 ever did.

And Heckler and Koch are anti-american.

HAHAHAHA. Are you serious?

 

[GungHo]

Go to arsenalinc.com and see if these are 'disposable peasant's weapons'. Better built than any AR.

Really? I'll go check and be right back.

... Those are nice AKs. I've handled a few. Even shot one. But, I still think my buddy's White Oak space gun may have a slight leg up in quality. But, thanks for playing!

Several parts of an AR are made of aluminum, including the magazines

Only if you buy aluminum magazines!

the steel cases are always wearing out the aluminum extractors

Wow, this just just plain wrong.

My last AK was a VEPR K, an outstanding rifle.

They are great little rifles, aren't they?

AR's a gunfighter's long gun. AK's an illiterate and disposable peasant's weapon (not the AK, the peasant).

Change "disposable" to "indestructible" and I'll agree. And I can't figure out why you want your gun to be able to read.

Wow. I've read this like 15 times and I'm still in awe.

However, going with the "theme", it's sure nice of them to give those indestructable peasants the AKs, but I'm not sure they'll need them... after all, you'd figure it'd all be over with these supermen keeping their pimp hands strong.