Military-Commercial Sig vs. Beretta

vanfunk

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The widening gyre
Hi All:

I trotted out to the range this morning to do a little informal comparison between my two “military commercial” 9mm pistols, the Beretta M9 and the Sig M17. They’re described as “Mil-Comm” because of course they are commercial versions of the military guns and almost identical, but not quite. For my purposes, though, there’s no difference.

The Beretta is a big pistol and its weight and ample grip help to tame recoil; the comparatively light slide is fast cycling and returns to zero quickly. The DA trigger is long and pretty heavy but very smooth and it’s easy to make that first DA shot count. SA is a very light 3.5 lbs in my example, with an excellent break. The reset is short, tactile and audible but not quite as emphatic as with some other pistols. Accuracy (25 yards offhand, 50 yard IPSC steel) and function were excellent at the range today, as they have been every time. :) the M9 likes a combat hold which is not my preference but I am getting used to it.

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Somewhat subjectively, switching to the M17 creates a feeling of overall lower quality than the Beretta. The Sig is unquestionably a fine pistol, but all the components feel as though they were pulled randomly from a bin and thrown hastily together (because they were, lol). Of course this interpretation is all about “feel” and not function. The grip is comfortable and a very good fit for my hand size; the controls are easy to manipulate and positive in function. The 3 dot night sights are easy to acquire and present a good picture for pinpoint shooting as well as fast work on the plate rack. Recoil is greater than the Beretta courtesy of the Sig’s lower weight and, perhaps, the higher bore axis. The Sig’s trigger feels a bit sloppy during dry fire but live fire feels excellent for a “striker.” Offhand accuracy was excellent.

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The verdict? Well, both pistols fed ravenously on my supply of S&B 115 grain ball ammo, with no failures and excellent combat accuracy. Surprisingly, I think I actually shot the Sig better; it may be due to my having more of a natural affinity for 3 dot sights vs. the Von Stavenhagen “Dot the i” sights on the Beretta. However, if I had to pick one I “like” better, I’d choose the Beretta as it just feels better.

Edited to add:throughout my range session, the Sig never went off without me pulling the trigger :)
 
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I think both pistols-though very different from one another- leave a lot to be desired. The main problem with the Sig is their reputation for firing when they shouldn't. It has never happened to me, and it never will because I don't own one and don't want to, and I'm not going to try one and give myself the opportunity to have an accident with one when I can just use a pistol that doesn't have these problems. On the other hand, I do have extensive experience with the M9- besides the design flaws that are included in the pistol, I have experienced and witnessed many incidents of parts breaking and general unreliability with that pistol. I can't describe how happy me and the rest of my unit was when the M9's finally went away and were replaced with the Glock 19.
 
I've seen no reports of the Sig M17 or M18 firing when not intended. Both of those have a 1911 style manual safety while the standard 320 has no manual safety. It's the version with no safety that is firing when not intended. I have no proof but find that nugget of information a clue as to what is happening. I don't think it's a gun problem; I think it's an operator problem.

FWIW I like Glock and think the military could have saved a lot of time and money had they just bought a bunch of G19's. There was no need to spend all the money testing them. But my M17 and M18 do have lighter triggers with shorter trigger pulls than Glock. I wouldn't want a Sig with no safety any more than I'd want a 1911 without one. The Glock trigger offers just enough more resistance to fire that I'm OK with them having no manual safety.

Not saying one is better than the other, both the Glock and Sig are good pistols, just different. When Glocks first came out they had a lot of unintentional discharges with people used to DA trigger pulls on the guns they grew up with. And we now have a generation of guys who grew up with Glocks and they are having unintentional discharges with the even lighter Sig trigger.

That's my OPINION anyway.
 
You won’t hear a complaint from me if the military had adopted the Glock 19 (says the guy who sold his G19 20 years ago). I don’t like Glocks ( though I have 5 of them, go figure) but it’s hard to deny their utility and, perhaps, military appropriateness for general issue. The trigger on the Sig is unquestionably leagues better than the Glock for target shooting but obviously others would contend that there are fatal design flaws inherent. The Beretta’s just really nicely made but it is definitely a more complicated design and may have more mechanical vulnerabilities than its polymer competitors.

P.S. that’s a mighty fine lookin’ rig there, CraigC!
 
I don’t have a lot of experience but the few times I was not impressed with the 320.
The Beretta is accurate for me but needs a Langdon trigger and grip for best shooting.
But what I have is a GGI P226.
 
In the early 1980's the Beretta 92SB-F and the SIG P226 were the pistols that ended the military test trails as equally good. SIG priced itself out because high component and repair parts prices put the overall lifetime costs above the Beretta.

What the next pistol will be, who knows. The ones who have a personnel preference about the features on one pistol or another, won't be the ones who create the pistol requirements. So as much as they want sprinkles on their Sundae,

iu


they aren't the decision makers. And, the Army is paranoid about troops negligently shooting each other, so I think it reasonable, there will be an external safety on whatever new pistol is adopted. In the early part of the Infinity Wars in Iraqi/Afghanistan, more injuries/fatalities happened to negligent shooting, then enemy action.
 
I’ve shot both, shot the M9 more than the sig

The sig shot very accurately for me and I prefer the trigger over the M9’s DA/SA

I find that trying to shoot fast with a M9 the first shot is not accurate

If I am deliberate I can shoot that first round real well, but not super wuick

Once the hammer is back, the M9 on SA is a real joy

My complaint with the M9 is mainly that the ones I have used have been shot far to many times without replacing springs frequently enough, so malfunctions are common. This is not a dig at the design as it is a dig at the armorers and maintenance. Take any handgun and put 30k rounds through it and the only maintenance is CLP and you will have problems. If i recall correctly most people start checking recoil spring function in Glocks around 5k rounds
 
I have an M9A3
Craig, was that considered military issue, or like military issue? I got an M9, back when they were first adopted, because I've examples of all our service pistols. Yours is the vertec grip, yes? If that is considered similar to GI, might turn my M9 into one. That grip fits me much better than the original.
Anyway, between the SIG and the Beretta, I'll have to give the nod to the M18. Fits my hand better, and I like the striker trigger better than the DA/SA of the M9.
Mechanically, kind of like the old-school all metal construction of the Beretta.
Moon
 
I have an M9 and a P320, although its an XC compact, and not the military copy.

Ive had a number of Berettas and they all were good, soft, smooth, and easy shooters. Never had any function issues with them. The DA trigger is the way the gun was designed and when you shoot them, you just have to shoot it like a DA gun. Not a big deal, nor is it a detriment, but you do need to keep up on them if you want to be competent with shooting them as they were meant to be shot. If I had to bitch about anything, its the decocker/safety. It works, but I find it annoying. I definitely prefer the SIG decockers over the Beretta type. They are just easier to use. I always leave the safety off on the 92's once its been decocked too.

With the P320 so far, I haven't been real impressed with it, and for the past couple of days, Ive actually been considering trading it off on a Walther PDP. Mine is accurate and shoots well enough. The flat trigger it came with bugs me and gives some noticeable trigger slap. I still think too, they could have got the bore axis down and comparable to other striker guns, but, it is what it is I guess. Personally, until they get some things sorted, Id take a P226 over the P320 if it was to be a SIG.
 
Craig, was that considered military issue, or like military issue? I got an M9, back when they were first adopted, because I've examples of all our service pistols. Yours is the vertec grip, yes? If that is considered similar to GI, might turn my M9 into one. That grip fits me much better than the original.
Anyway, between the SIG and the Beretta, I'll have to give the nod to the M18. Fits my hand better, and I like the striker trigger better than the DA/SA of the M9.
Mechanically, kind of like the old-school all metal construction of the Beretta.
Moon
If I remember right, it was supposed to be the next iteration of the M9 but the Army didn't even evaluate it. The main update was the light/laser rail and the Vertec grip.

I do like the Vertec grip a lot better than the original.

1742874394239.jpeg


I can't find anything to complain about with the SIG. Been thinking about upgrading to the M17 but then Beretta decided to put a camo paint job on the SAO 92X and now I want one. Just wish it had a threaded barrel.

1742874550837.png
 
In all honesty, I liked the M9. It fit my hand, I easily qual'ed expert with it and I appreciated its reliability and accuracy. I was also privileged to serve in units in which we had access to the SIG P228 (M11) and the P226.

Although I own a couple 320s, frankly, I'm underwhelmed. Given a choice, I'd probably choose the P-226 as a duty pistol over the rest. And yeah, I've owned (and still do own) Glock 19s...
 
If I remember right, it was supposed to be the next iteration of the M9 but the Army didn't even evaluate it. The main update was the light/laser rail and the Vertec grip.
Thanks, Craig. Suppose I'll sit tight for the moment. An Inox Vertec compact, which is apparently a somewhat rare bird, went through my local shop. I thought it was overpriced, and passed, hoping the (consignment) price would come down a little. Haven't seen another since, but it felt really good in the hand.
Moon
 
Thanks, Craig. Suppose I'll sit tight for the moment. An Inox Vertec compact, which is apparently a somewhat rare bird, went through my local shop. I thought it was overpriced, and passed, hoping the (consignment) price would come down a little. Haven't seen another since, but it felt really good in the hand.
Moon
Hey Craig, since you seem knowledgeable, do the Vertec frames interchange with M9 slides, with a decock/safety? The 92 series is as bad as the CZ 75; there have been a bunch of variations, and I've lost track.
Moon
 
They should exchange.

The odd ball guns are the 92A1/96A1 and the 90-Two guns. Those guns have different frames and also slides.

The Vertec slides are what are on the Langdon guns that use the M9A1 frames as an example of the compatibility within the other models.
 
Hey Craig, since you seem knowledgeable, do the Vertec frames interchange with M9 slides, with a decock/safety? The 92 series is as bad as the CZ 75; there have been a bunch of variations, and I've lost track.
Moon
As JTQ said, they should. Though I'm not an authority on it. The 92's used to be pretty straightforward but they've introduced a bunch of new variations on the last several years.
 
Fellers, the vendor assures me it will work correctly, and allows it can be returned if not. It will arrive on Friday, so we will see.
The vendor had a bunch of Vtec grip assemblies, and, not long after I stumbled on to them, they appear to have been bought up.
Really hope it works; don't care for the grip on an M9.
Thanks again,
Moon
 
Fellers, the vendor assures me it will work correctly, and allows it can be returned if not. It will arrive on Friday, so we will see.
The vendor had a bunch of Vtec grip assemblies, and, not long after I stumbled on to them, they appear to have been bought up.
Really hope it works; don't care for the grip on an M9.
Thanks again,
Moon
Slim grips on the basic 92FS/M9 frame will make a big difference, if you can't find a Vertec frame.

One example https://langdontactical.com/vz-g10-ultra-thin-ltt-grips/

By the way, if you're ordering, it is Vertec. Honda is where you'll find a Vtec.;)
 
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By the way, if you're ordering, it is Vertec. Honda is where you'll find a Vtec
LOL! Yeah, know the Vtec thing; I'm a motor head as well.
Oddly, I tried a set of those grips, and ended up passing them on to a buddy. Didn't really make much difference.
Friday will tell the tale.
Had the M9 out today; the single action trigger is really good...although that doesn't guarantee the Vertec lower will as well.....
Moon
 
All,

I have shot the M320 as a range rental and thought is was all right, but if I was making the choice, I would have gone with the BERETTA M9A3. I bought one and it has become one of my favorite pistols. Great grip shape because of the VERTEC grip. Great trigger, smooth and lighter than the old M-9 pistols. Very accurate and reliable as an anvil. I now use it as my house gun.

I liked it so much, that I bought a 92X Compact for my wife and then hoped she would say it was too big for her. Nope!

I will order another 92X Compact, but it will be the LANGDON LLT model.

Then I will ship the M9A3 off to WILSON for a tune and match barrel. Afterwards, I to shoot them side by side to see which I like the most.

Jim
 
Well, the Vertec lower appeared today; the M9 slide went right on, everything worked, and ran a fast magazine through it on my way home. (I don't think the folks at WalMart got my plate number.... ;) )
Seriously, easy peasy, and it feels really good in the hand. And it let me keep the M9, rather than trade it for a Vertec model.
Any idea of the genesis of the Vertec?
Now, I'll have to shoot it, and the M18, back to back.
I liked it so much, that I bought a 92X Compact
Handled an Inox Compact years ago; it felt great in the hand, which is what started me down this road. I've never seen another Inox Compact.
Moon
 
Any idea of the genesis of the Vertec?
I believe the late Todd L. Green (pitol-forum.com and pistol-training.com, and the FAST test/coin) was behind the Vertec during his time working at Beretta.

I believe the original idea, and further developed now with the 92XI single action models, is to give a 1911 feel (flat mainspring housing) to the Beretta and relieves it somewhat of the chunky feeling of the 92FS grip.
 
I believe the late Todd L. Green (pitol-forum.com and pistol-training.com, and the FAST test/coin) was behind the Vertec during his time working at Beretta.

I believe the original idea, and further developed now with the 92XI single action models, is to give a 1911 feel (flat mainspring housing) to the Beretta and relieves it somewhat of the chunky feeling of the 92FS grip.
Thanks, JTQ; a '1911' feel makes sense. Personally, prefer flat mainspring housings on those.
Yeah, the M9 feels like the wrong end of a Louisville Slugger.
The interchangeable poly lowers, on the M17/M18, makes more sense all the time.
Moon
 
I will order another 92X Compact, but it will be the LANGDON LLT model.
Any of yours Inox? Tell me a little more about the LANGDON LLT model, if you would.
I really don't want to go down the Beretta rabbit hole (have a track record of the rabbit hole thing....), but did like that Compact.
Moon
 
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