Military Crimp Removal w/RCBS Military Crimp Remover bit

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Wildkow, Aug 11, 2009.

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  1. EddieCoyle

    EddieCoyle Member

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    I recently bought over 20K once fired Radway Green .223 cases with crimped pockets for a large (obviously) reloading project.

    I already had one of the RCBS swaging die sets so I tried it in a single stage press. It still left the cases hard to prime, and is way too slow.

    Next I tried the Dillon swaging tool. The resulting cases primed OK w/CCI primers, but they were hard to prime with Wolf primers. The Dillon tool is faster than the RCBS swaging die, but still too slow.

    I ended up buying a Weldon Countersink bit like this for about $20:

    weldon1.jpg

    I chucked it up into my drill press and swung the table out of the way. To remove the crimp, I just touch the primer pocket onto the bottom of the spinning bit. You get a feel for it and end up removing much less material than in the photos above. It's also about 4 times faster than any other method I've tried.
     
  2. NoAlibi

    NoAlibi Member

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    Looks promising. Did you use a "V" block, freehand or... :confused:

    Thanks -- NoAlibi
     
  3. krs

    krs Member

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    When did a military start using Winchester brass marked .223 Rem?

    I'm thinking that there never was a "military crimp" in any of the brass shown by the OP.
     
  4. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    I'm thinking you are exactly right!

    Nice catch!

    rc
     
  5. The Bushmaster

    The Bushmaster Member

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    1/2' twist drill bit...Cheap to and adjustable...
     
  6. krs

    krs Member

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    :) Sometimes gentle wording is pretty difficult, eh?
     
  7. EddieCoyle

    EddieCoyle Member

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    Freehand. The Weldon countersink has only one cutting edge and the point is dull. It's very easy to control the depth of cut just by pushing the case up to the bit, and there's no chatter.
     
  8. ants

    ants Member

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    Does Winchester crimp any commercial 223 Rem? I haven't seen any, but I guess it's possible. Got any pictures of un-reamed brass?
     
  9. Maj Dad

    Maj Dad Member

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    Learning Arc

    I use the RCBS swage, but if you follow the directions and run a 30-06 into it, you will crimp the necks into a neat round ball around the rod. I went through a couple of rods and lots of cases before I called RCBS (who sent new rods without charge and at their suggestion - one reason I like to use their products) and the guy said, no, you have to back the die out for long cases. They will be happy to walk you through it, and though I am Mr. Tool Time/Mr. Fixit, I have finally learned to read the directions and ask questions before breaking it. In this case, the questions came apres le deluge, but at least I called ;)
    Cheers,
    Maj Dad
     
  10. weeniewawa
    • Contributing Member

    weeniewawa Contributing Member

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    those look more like countersinks than swage removal

    I use the dillon super swage also and it seems to almost not make any unneeded removal
     
  11. Wildkow

    Wildkow Member

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    Does the first picture in the series not show a crimp? I think I deprimed all of them by now looking through some brass to see if I missed one.

    BTW: My Dillon 600 Super Swage should be here Monday 08/31 or Tuesday 09/01.

    Wildkow
     
  12. krs

    krs Member

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    No.

    Whatever it is, it's not a military crimp and I'm pretty sure that you've been chasing a non-existant problem...and, were those my cases I would consider them to be ruined, toss them, and move on.

    Some brass makers use a 'liner' or maybe it's a pocket that's put together as part of the construction of the casing. I don't know what it's called because I've never given it much thought but you find it in some, not others of the same caliber, and in some but not all other calibers.

    I've no doubt someone will happen along who knows the details of cartridge case construction variations but a crimped in primer is more obviously an after-the-fact procedure in one form or another.

    I was working with some of the Greek HXP (HXP 69) ammunition today and thinking of you saw that the crimping method used by whatever Greek manufacturer is quite obvious to see. There are three small punch like marks similar to the swage tool marks used to secure 1911 grip bushings in their pistol frame.
     
  13. Wildkow

    Wildkow Member

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    :cuss: So hours of reaming and $100+ dollars to Dillon for nothing? :banghead:

    Ahem, . . . Thank you :scrutiny:

    Wildkow

    p.s. Sometimes gentle wording is pretty difficult, eh? :D
     
  14. Roccobro

    Roccobro Member

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    Most of the Winchester range pickups I get do have crimps.

    To be NATO spec doesn't it require a primer crimp?

    Justin
     
  15. krs

    krs Member

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    I'm not reloading for rifles lately but do have a couple hundred Winchester .45 cases that I've recently culled out of my brass stash to use in making up some carefully loaded rounds. I'm weighing each bullet, each case, each case after priming, and each finished round to gather up a batch that's as identical as I can make.

    All of that to support that I'm paying attention.

    All of the Winchester brass I've looked at does have a secondary ring that's visible around the original seated primer.

    So does R - P, Fiochi, PMC, but take a look at a Federal case if you can. The Federal .45 acp brass that I have has a more pronounced ring around the primer pockets than most other maker brass that I have, and it's pretty clear that it is just a 'step', an indented edge, or whatever term to use. Not a crimp - just a part of the casing. The Federal makes it look as though the primer is put in on a lower level than the head (of course, it IS) and the lowering is assured by the formation of a sunken hole for it. Looks kinda' like a sunken bathtub, in a loose kind of figurative view.

    Now, if you find any with that edge around the sunken primer level pushed over inward by some mechanical means - that'll be a crimp. Get some known military brass to aid in observing it.
     
  16. Wildkow

    Wildkow Member

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    Best pic's I can muster with my limited skills.

    Examples of "Military Crimp" primers found on the internet.

    [​IMG]

    Primercrimp1.jpg

    150Sierra47.jpg

    My brass . . .

    3877153452_9f9f20e38a_o.png

    Sure looks crimped to me anyone have some Winchester .223 that looks like mine? Guy that sold them to me said they were military, but no Circle/Cross emblem. Which made me ask him again and he confirmed. So back to the internet to try and confirm the use of this stamp on NATO 5.56. I Found these, Froniter/Hornady, on the THR. Neither has the circle/cross but both are stamped NATO. Check the squared off primer pocket in the Horandy round!

    s6om0c2e0f.jpg

    01so70tzhg.jpg

    :banghead:

    Wildkow
     
  17. Roccobro

    Roccobro Member

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    Those winchester crimps look just like mine. Which were used in military training. Bought it all from a soldier who shot it. I only bought a few thousand or 7 so I could be wrong about them being crimps.

    But no matter how hard I try, I cannot get primers in without removing the little ring-around-the-primer first.

    Justin
     
  18. Jmurman

    Jmurman Member

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    Those fired Win .223 look to have cratered primers...overpressure?
     
  19. krs

    krs Member

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    Fine, ALL brass has a military crimp.
     
  20. Wildkow

    Wildkow Member

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    KRS don't get me wrong I appreciate all the help I can get, as I am a n00b at reloading. I tried to seat a couple of primers after using the "RCBS Primer Pocket Uniformer" these are the results . . .

    3878309817_4e748e3b9f_o.png

    I did not use the RCBS Military Crimp Reamer bit. Even if this isn't a military crimp it seems that something is preventing these primers (Wolf Small Rifle) from seating properly. It seems only one seated 100% correctly, 2nd from the right, with just a small bit of restistance to being seated, the other two took some effort and seated but they look different and the last two are clearly damaged from the seating process. I'm going back over the procedure to seat primers in my Dillon XL650 but it seems simple enough. I think I'll call Dillon and see what they have to say.

    Thanks for taking your time to address this problem of mine and educating me! :D

    Wildkow
     
  21. Wildkow

    Wildkow Member

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  22. Jmurman

    Jmurman Member

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    Wildkow,

    I have never had the issues with swaging out a military crimp like you are having.

    Thank goodness we only have to swage once per cartridge!!!!!!

    I have a RCBS manual swage die, and then i follow with a couple of turns with this tool.

    Perfect diameter and depth everytime.

    The last photo you showed looked to me like there is too much pressure on the primers, which is flattening out and crushing them. The insert should give a bit of resistance at first and then move into the pocket smoothly. The primer should reside barely below the rim of the cartridge case.
     
  23. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

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    I chuck the Hornady Primer Pocket reamer into my drill press and then put on a rubber dishwashing glove to improve my grip on the cases.

    I turn the drill press at it's lowest speed and then simply bump each case up into the reamer. I visually inspect the primer pocket and bump it again if need be.

    Most cases just get one bump and the crimp is gone

    If I overdo it and cut to deep, I just throw that case into the scrap bin
     
  24. Wildkow

    Wildkow Member

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    Okay! Got my Dillon SS 600 Super Swage, got it mounted and have done the first 200 rounds in about 15 minutes. This thing is Sweet! :D Now primers seat without trouble and tomorrow I'm heading to the shooting range to try some of my reloads.

    Wideners .223 Mil-spec 75 gr HPBT 2.250- 2.260" COL
    Varget 23-24.8 gr's.
    Winchester brass
    Wolf Small Rifle primers


    Wildkow
     
  25. counterclockwise

    counterclockwise Member

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    I thought so too, but found I could not get away with it. Even though the end mill of the PPU seemed to snag the old crimp ring and whisk it away, it was really not gone. It caused problems when inserting the new primer. I went back to swaging and the problem went away. I like the idea of the countersink method to remove the crimp, instead of the swager because the swager requires lots of force.

    Now about that Primer pocket uniformer. Is it adjustable? The PPU tool is nice but it is what is going to mess with your primer cup depth after insertion. I really screwed up some otherwise good cases the other day when the PPU bored the primer pocket bottoms too deep. IF it is adjustable, set it up to where it just cleans the crud out of the bottom of the pocket, but does not remove any brass. Insert a few primers, lay the edge of a steel rule or other straight edge across the case head and hold up to the light. If light leaks under the straight edge over the primer it is seated OK. After a while you can develop a feel for when the inserted new primer depth is right.
     
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