Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Military Firearms: What Should Have Been

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by cordex, Jul 25, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. cordex

    cordex Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2002
    Messages:
    2,714
    Location:
    Indiana
    What small arms were never adopted into major military service but in your mind should have been?

    What rifle/pistol/shotgun/subgun/gpmg/etc was the dog's nightshirt of its time, but never made it into the arsenals of any major player?
     
  2. seeker_two

    seeker_two Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    3,616
    Location:
    Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
    Armalite AR-10 .308.

    If it had been adopted, we'd never have seen the M-16...:cool:
     
  3. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2002
    Messages:
    18,528
    The Spencer Lever Action repeater should have been retained after the Civil War. Custer might have lived to write his own memoirs. :p (BTW, I've no love for Custer)

    The Ferguson rifle should have been adopted by the British Army. While it cost twice the amount to produce (and was susceptible to stock failure), it would have given the British the edge over every other nation during the World War we know as the American Revolution.

    The M-1 Garand with a 20 round detachable BAR magazine. Just don't ask it to be full-auto and it'll do just fine.
     
  4. T.Stahl

    T.Stahl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    739
    Location:
    near Hamburg/Germany
    HK G11 and LMG11.
     
  5. Marko Kloos

    Marko Kloos Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    2,587
    Location:
    Enfield, NH
    You got that right. :D

    I consider my brief experience with the G11 back in 1989 one of the high points of my military time. The G36 is so-so, but I'd have traded my G3 for a G11 in a heartbeat.
     
  6. Ol' Badger

    Ol' Badger Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2003
    Messages:
    856
    Location:
    Locked in a Condo in Falls Church VA.
    How about the UZI in .45?
     
  7. BowStreetRunner

    BowStreetRunner Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2003
    Messages:
    1,185
    Location:
    North Florida
    I second the ferguson rifle vote
    accuracy beyond the norm, the ability to load laying down.....
    even in the hands of just grenadier companies or light infantry companies it would have been a huge tactical boost
    BSR
     
  8. George Hill

    George Hill Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    6,842
    Location:
    Uintah Basin, UT
  9. Jeff Timm

    Jeff Timm Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2003
    Messages:
    933
    Location:
    St. Augustine, FL
    The Ferguson was much over rated. Black power would foul the mechanism after 10-15 rounds. Then again, deploying the riflemen as skirmishers and cavalry, and avoiding pitched battles they would have been very effective.

    Hummm....which is pretty much how Ferguson deployed his troops.

    Geoff
    Who suspects the man knew the limitations of his weapon.
     
  10. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    23,648
    Location:
    Los Anchorage
    FN-49--NO QUESTION

    The Brits had all the patents and diagrams needed to build the FN-49 from Belgian engineers who escaped the Nazis. They toyed with the rifles, but never mass-produced them.

    Can you imagine elite squads of British paratroops armed with SAFN's, or British troops advancing through France with SAFN's? They would have put the Garand to shame. Esp. if the Brits had improved them a bit and allowed for a detatchable magazine, which would have allowed 20 rounders.
     
  11. MicroBalrog

    MicroBalrog member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    2,896
    Location:
    The State of Israel - aka Gun Nut Hell
    The Fedorov Rifle

    First true assault rifle... Developed in Russia in 1916. Need I say more?
     
  12. jhisaac1

    jhisaac1 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    179
    Location:
    Newberg, OR
    You mean the M-14?

    I'm not an M-14 (or Garand) expert, but isn't that pretty much what it is?

    jhisaac1
     
  13. Preacherman

    Preacherman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,309
    Location:
    Louisiana, USA
    The Garand, in its original caliber (.276 IIRC). Would have made the gun over a pound and a half lighter, whilst still offering great ballistics and terminal effect. If this round had succeeded, maybe we would never have had the 5.56mm. foisted upon us... :(
     
  14. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2002
    Messages:
    18,528
    Trick w/the Ferguson rifle is to either pour water down it to clear the threads or to coat it heavily with beeswax. I'll use water first. But let's say they were good for only 15 rounds. That's plenty when you consider they're aimed shots as opposed to volley fired shots.

    The real issue is the lack of suitable tactics for riflemen. Ferguson knew enough to train them to seek cover, load while on the ground, and use open order for skirmishing, but I don't think he ever studied the German Jager tactics. The Germans were very advanced in the deployment of Jagers and some were equipped with smoothbores to support the rifle troops (these were actually light infantry). Furthermore, some jagers were horse mounted - something done on a very limited scale by the Queen's Rangers under Lt. Col. Simcoe. Rifle tactics were finally adopted by the British in 1797 when Lt. Col. Francis von Rottenburg wrote a manual on it that was adopted for the 5/60 and used by Stewart & Manningham in training the 95th. Even if said tactics were known and used back in 1777, brigade commanders had to know how to use rifle troops and most of them were pretty clueless.
     
  15. Mike Irwin

    Mike Irwin Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    7,956
    Location:
    Below the Manson-Nixon line in Virginia...
    "The Spencer Lever Action repeater should have been retained after the Civil War. Custer might have lived to write his own memoirs."

    Gary, I've often thought that the Spencer should have been redesigned so that it could use either the .45 Colt or the .45 S&W round.

    That would have knocked out the military's main objection in that they wanted a standard rifle round for issue to both cavalry and infantry.

    And then they screwed that up by adopting the carbine .45-55 round for use by the horse troopers!

    Using the standard pistol round would have given them commonality and reduced the burden on the supply train.
     
  16. Telperion

    Telperion Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2003
    Messages:
    1,482
    Location:
    Oregon
    I'll second the G11 as well. Caseless ammunition is one of the last remaining revolutionary ideas left in small arms design.
     
  17. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2002
    Messages:
    18,528
    Mike, the new "recreated" Spencers take a modern bullet, but since it's out of my league (I'm sticking w/muzzleloaders and my Perdesoil Sharps is as modern as I'm getting for ACW), I don't know what caliber.

    Spencer was too good and as the US wanted to dump its guns to pay for the war, he put himself out of bizness. Along with the Henry, it was one of those "Damned Yankee guns you load on Sunday and shoot all week."
     
  18. 0007

    0007 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Location:
    Back in the USA
    Can you say "Stoner System"? With a little work on that one, the M-16 and all its follow-on various "improvements" would have been DOA.
     
  19. VG

    VG Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Messages:
    657
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    A closer look.......

    should have been taken at the Savage auto pistol in .45ACP.
     
  20. telomerase

    telomerase Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2003
    Messages:
    3,208
    Location:
    The bear-infested hills of Grafton NH
    The backpack ADM, the Davy Crockett, and the Crockett's warhead on the FOG.
     
  21. Zeke Menuar

    Zeke Menuar Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2003
    Messages:
    1,228
    Location:
    Oregon Monsoon Central
    An interesting project would have been an AR-180 type rifle chambered in 250 Savage or equivalent. More power than the 5.56mm and almost as light.

    ZM
     
  22. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2002
    Messages:
    18,528
    BTW, I did mean the 30-06 Garand with a detachable BAR magazine. The M-14 is actually a superior design and it's not just the detachable magazine. The shortened op-rod is less likely to get tweaked and besides that, it's also lighter.
     
  23. Sylvilagus Aquaticus

    Sylvilagus Aquaticus Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,170
    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    yeah, the Davy Crockett was a real piece of work. Basically a nuclear hand grenade. Didja know that the yield could be adjusted up or down, depending on the needed range? Fired off a little 155 fixture...my main concern with it was that its' nuclear yield blast radius was generally about the same (or more at max yield) than the maximum range. I suppose if you were trying to keep Russkies out of the Fulda Gap or North Koreans and ChiComs from crossing over the DMZ it wouldn't matter to truly dedicated soldiers. Being overrun has its' own disadvantages; it's better to take as many with you as you can. My dad had training and a little experience with the Davy Crockett; I've heard a few stories.


    http://www.guntruck.com/DavyCrockett.html

    Regards,
    Rabbit.
     
  24. Glock Glockler

    Glock Glockler Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,279
    Location:
    Southern NH
    HK CAWS, looks cool as hell and that it wuld be absoutely viscous for CQB, anyone have any idea why the muppets in the Pentagon rejected it?
     
  25. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2002
    Messages:
    14,502
    Location:
    Centennial, CO
    I'm still scratching my head as to why the US Army never formally adopted Winchester & or Marlin lever guns. I know Henrys served in the Civil war, but in small numbers. We had multiple shot, reliable rifles long before the Krag. Was it the advent of smokeless powder or??? Imagine San Juan Hill fought not Krag vs Mauser, but Marlin vs. Mauser. ("Then sighting the Spanishgunner to raise his head above the armor plate of the machine gun I raised the rear sight of my Marlin 45-70 and...")

    Also sad that Colt dropped the ASP in development, otherwise Colt might be supplying the US military today with 9mm pistols.

    Some ideas I'm glad we dropped: Reisning SMG (fragile), Johnson rifle (long load time), though both saw use in WW2.

    Also find it suprising that there was NO further US development of the .45cal submachinegun past the M-3. (And the SW76 is a Karl Gustav copy, right?) I recall going to armed forces day and seeing each tank/afv/mobile arty pice had racks or compartments to store M-3's. I guess those were all de-commed along with the .45 cal pistol. Then again at $3 ea. the M-3 was a pretty good deal. Wonder where they all went?

    Ideas the Germans are happy didn't make it into production: Simonov.

    Ideas the Russians are happy didn't make it to the field in greater numbers: STG-44.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page