Military Question regarding state of residency

[BullfrogKen]

There is only ONE spot for ONE state of residency on the form 4473. An FFL must only comply with the laws of the state their business is in, and the state of residency listed on the form 4473.

Yup, but if I was making the sale I'd be concerned that the customer in front of me might not actually be a resident of Illinois when his ID was issued by California.

Anyway, the issue is moot now since he said he didn't get his California driver's license.


You know Scorpion, back in 2007 you were convinced the AWB was going to come back again. It's unlikely to be re-introduced again. The Congress doesn't have the will to make it an issue, so I'd put money on the statement that you'll be able to buy your rifle when you get a stateside post.

The fact I'm being taxed for a state I don't live in

Yeah, because that's your state of residency. While Illinois is taxing you, Germany is not. And when you get stateside, unless you meet the hurdle of establishing residency in your new state, Illinois is getting the tax revenue your new state is missing out on. Point is you are still eligible to vote in the state you are a resident of, even though you don't live there.

While we're on the topic of voter eligibility - complaining about future guns bans while not being registered to vote is disingenuous. Get registered, son.



Simmer down. The world is not out to screw you.

 

[Desert Scorpion]

Words of wisdom; I will just wait, this is just to much problems. I hope you see however why I'm so agitated. voting to me just doesn't seem to help since its electoral and both states I ever resided in just go demo anyways. So I channel my help through the NRA they seem to be doing a good job.

 

[VPLthrneck]

If most of your family is now on the west coast, then when you are back stateside go and renew your driver's license in the state they are in. If you want to keep your guns at your brothers in Washington then go there and get a WA drivers license, register to vote there, and use his physical address as your place of residence. Then when you get back to Germany go to your personnel office and update your W-4 tax forms to change your tax info to reflect your new state of residency. If you don't want to be a resident of WA, and you have family elsewhere outside of Illinois then visit them and use their address to establish residency in that particular state. Might sound complicated but should take you only a few hours of time. You will have to surrender your IL drivers license when you go to get one from another state, but that will only cement proof of your new state residency.

 

[Desert Scorpion]

That sounds like the best idea I will just use there address and change over Washington sounds like the best bet. Thank you

 

[NavyLCDR]

Yup, but if I was making the sale I'd be concerned that the customer in front of me might not actually be a resident of Illinois when his ID was issued by California.

Then it would not be an issue of also complying with California law. It would be an issue of making a false statement on the form 4473, and if you had reasonable reason to believe that a false statement was made on the form 4473 and completed the sale anyway, you would be a conspirator in the commission of a felony.

 

[NavyLCDR]

If most of your family is now on the west coast, then when you are back stateside go and renew your driver's license in the state they are in. If you want to keep your guns at your brothers in Washington then go there and get a WA drivers license, register to vote there, and use his physical address as your place of residence. Then when you get back to Germany go to your personnel office and update your W-4 tax forms to change your tax info to reflect your new state of residency. If you don't want to be a resident of WA, and you have family elsewhere outside of Illinois then visit them and use their address to establish residency in that particular state. Might sound complicated but should take you only a few hours of time. You will have to surrender your IL drivers license when you go to get one from another state, but that will only cement proof of your new state residency.

That sounds like the best idea I will just use there address and change over Washington sounds like the best bet. Thank you

Still does not fulfill the legal requirement for residency for firearms transactions, though. Now we are creating a conspiracy to commit a Federal felony.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1&idno=27

§ 478.11 Meaning of terms.
State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2. A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

 

[brickeyee]

Residency for tax purposes is NOT the same as residency for purchasing firearms.

Under the letter of the law you may not be able to purchase a firearm in ANY state since you are NOT an actual resident of any state (physically present in the state with the intention of staying there and making a home).

A state may consider you a resident without satisfying BATFE.

The IRS may consider you a resident for paying income taxes.

Neither mean anything to BATFE for purchasing a gun.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Exactly correct, brickeyee. There is nothing in the definition of State of Residency in 27 CFR 478.11 about paying taxes, being registered to vote, being the military Home of Record or even having a driver's license or state ID card that establishes residency.

 

[Desert Scorpion]

The military has a lot of people in it that love and collect weapons I'm sure there is a law somewhere that grants me the right to own a firearm there is no way all of us over here just can't have our second amendment; it's just not feasible at all. This is agitating me I'm off for the night.

 

[BullfrogKen]

brickeyee,

Very succinct way of making a point. Thanks for clearing that up for us.


If he is still intent on buying this gun right now, not later, perhaps the best thing to do is make the purchase and wait until he's stationed back stateside to actually effect the transfer to take possession.

I imagine places like Bud's Gun Shop get see this sort of thing from time to time. They'll offer those great sales on big trade-ins, and when someone serving overseas wants one I imagine they'll accommodate by selling the gun and waiting until the servicemember gets home to ship it to his FFL.


That sounds like a much better idea than attempting what's been suggested above.

 

[tom e gun]

To the original poster:
The military follows the rules of the "host nation" when it comes to firearms. I spent three years there in Germany and after finding out what it took just to bring over firearms there (legally anyway) I simply gave up. I believe you have to take a hunters course of several months in length, plus have either a hunting or sporting purpose for even trying to own a gun. Also you are allowed to have one rifle and one pistol. (Pistol for "coup de gras" in the case of not killing an animal with first rifle shot, to then put them down "humanely")
In addition, if your are a single soldier/barracks dweller, you will be required to have your firearms stored in your unit's Arms Room (with Command approval of course) and it must be on their "books" for inventory purposes right along side the issued weapons (though stored in its own seperate rack or locked case/locker) Another also: to retrieve ones weapon for use, you also must get the Commanders approval whenever you want to get it from the Arms Room. (I managed my unit's Arms Room there) Now as far as if you have On/Off Post housing, I'm not clear of the rules for keeping Arms there, though I imagine on post wouldn't be nearly as troublesome as off post.
I was stationed in Kaiserslautern and the Vogelweh housing area there had a Rod & Gun club off to the side of it that rented firearms for use and also sold some, so if you find an organization such as that near you anywhere there you could get the full scope of what you could do to facilitate your firearms owning ability.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The military has a lot of people in it that love and collect weapons I'm sure there is a law somewhere that grants me the right to own a firearm there is no way all of us over here just can't have our second amendment; it's just not feasible at all. This is agitating me I'm off for the night.

1. The Second Amendment does not apply outside the United States. You have no Second Amendment rights outside the US.
2. It's against military regulations for me to carry a personal firearm in uniform, even inside the United States. We give up lots of rights when we VOLUNTEER for military service.
3. You can own a firearm. Nothing is prohibiting you from owning a firearm. You just can't purchase one until you are physically present in a state with the intention of living there and not merely visiting a or multiple state(s) on leave.

 

[VPLthrneck]

Desert Scorpion had stated in an earlier posting that he maintained no residence in IL and had no family there, so I was merely letting him know the best way to change his residency to a location that is friendlier to gun owners than IL is. Also certain states do not tax military income as long as you can prove you did not earn that income in the state.

As far as purchasing a firearm when you are stationed in a state other than where your driver's license is issued, that will also require you to show a copy of military orders (to prove you are stationed in that state and not passing through), your military ID card, and your driver's license. The orders are used to meet the requirement of being a "resident." And the driver's license is used to check if your home state has other requirments such as IL and their FOID card. How do I know this: I bought all my firearms while in the military and never once had any intention of making a home in any state I was stationed in; I had orders to those places which fulfilled the requirement.

You can own a firearm. Nothing is prohibiting you from owning a firearm. You just can't purchase one until you are physically present in a state with the intention of living there and not merely visiting a or multiple state(s) on leave.

Not totally correct there. Depending on the state you are visiting you can buy a rifle or shotgun, but not a pistol. I found this out when I was in Montana on leave and went to the local gun store. Told them I was visiting from California and the response was that I could only buy a rifle or shotgun due to federal and state laws. When I showed them my MT drivers license they were happy to sell me a pistol (didn't buy it because it was cheaper in San Diego than Miles City).

However, if you were a resident of WA before joining the Navy, and have been continually stationed there, then none of this would have ever effected you.

 

[NavyLCDR]

As far as purchasing a firearm when you are stationed in a state other than where your driver's license is issued, that will also require you to show a copy of military orders (to prove you are stationed in that state and not passing through), your military ID card, and your driver's license. The orders are used to meet the requirement of being a "resident." And the driver's license is used to check if your home state has other requirments such as IL and their FOID card. How do I know this: I bought all my firearms while in the military and never once had any intention of making a home in any state I was stationed in; I had orders to those places which fulfilled the requirement.

Incorrect. As I posted, the applicable CFR clearly states that military members ARE A RESIDENT of the state they have permanent orders to. Again, the military members Home of Record state has NOTHING to do with it. Let's say I entered the military from Illinois, and I maintain Illinois as my home of record, and I get permanently stationed to Washington. The ONLY state laws I have to meet to buy firearms in Washington is Washington's laws. I can purchase handguns in Washington with only my active duty military ID card and my orders to Washington state. I never have to show my Illinois driver's license and I am not required to posses an Illinois FOID card.

If I choose to return to Illinois with my firearms, THEN I would be required to have the Illinois FOID.

Not totally correct there. Depending on the state you are visiting you can buy a rifle or shotgun, but not a pistol. I found this out when I was in Montana on leave and went to the local gun store. Told them I was visiting from California and the response was that I could only buy a rifle or shotgun due to federal and state laws. When I showed them my MT drivers license they were happy to sell me a pistol (didn't buy it because it was cheaper in San Diego than Miles City).

A Federal felony in the making. A driver's license does not make you a resident of a state for the purposes of firearms transactions. You were VISITING Montana - not present there with the intention of remaining there to make a home. Your intention was to return to California, your state of residence, after your leave period was over. If you would have purchased the handgun in Montana, you would have committed a couple of Federal Felonies.

Yes, you can purchase rifles and shotguns when VISITING another state - HOWEVER, in order to do so, you MUST have a LEGITIMATE state of residence, as defined in 27 CFR 478.11. From the information contained in Desert Scorpion's posts, he has no current state of residence in the US for the purposes of firearms transactions.

 

[VPLthrneck]

Example 2. A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

This is the loophole that military members fall under. Especially when you use orders to fulfill the BATFE requirement for proof of residency in one state (State X), but your vehicle registration, driver's license, and taxes are filed in a different state-hence making you a resident of that state also (State Y). So while you are on leave and you go back to State Y, you are then a resident of that state, not State X and everything is legit. After leave and you are back in State X, then you are a resident of that state. And all it takes to maintain a home is just leave some stuff at the other place; something that shows you have intentions so return there.

So if I would have purchased a handgun in Montana; even though I was stationed in California, it would have been done so as a resident of Montana. But by waiting 20 days and buying it upon my return to California, I did so as a resident of California through the use of military orders.

Now just because someone is in the military and is stationed overseas, they don't lose their stateside residency. And to say they do is just asinine. The key is having a valid form of identification with a legitimate, physical address on it.
So if someone is stationed in Germany, or Korea, or Japan; but has a driver's license from Kansas; and goes to Nevada for a vacation they can still purchase a rifle there because they can utilize Kansas as their residence.

 

[NavyLCDR]

This is the loophole that military members fall under. Especially when you use orders to fulfill the BATFE requirement for proof of residency in one state (State X), but your vehicle registration, driver's license, and taxes are filed in a different state-hence making you a resident of that state also (State Y). So while you are on leave and you go back to State Y, you are then a resident of that state, not State X and everything is legit. After leave and you are back in State X, then you are a resident of that state. And all it takes to maintain a home is just leave some stuff at the other place; something that shows you have intentions so return there.

So if I would have purchased a handgun in Montana; even though I was stationed in California, it would have been done so as a resident of Montana. But by waiting 20 days and buying it upon my return to California, I did so as a resident of California through the use of military orders.

Now just because someone is in the military and is stationed overseas, they don't lose their stateside residency. And to say they do is just asinine. The key is having a valid form of identification with a legitimate, physical address on it.
So if someone is stationed in Germany, or Korea, or Japan; but has a driver's license from Kansas; and goes to Nevada for a vacation they can still purchase a rifle there because they can utilize Kansas as their residence.

Again, VPLthrneck is posting very incorrect information that could cause people to commit illegal firearms purchases.

 

[VPLthrneck]

So what is incorrect and would create an illegal purchase? Seven gun shops in three states had no problem with any of this, and six of them do alot of business with military members stationed in their locales; so I'll trust to their advice and business methods.

 

[hermannr]

Desert: Off topic, but not. While you are in the military you may choose any state as your state of record...then you can register to vote, purchase firearms that are legal for that state, and you will pay whatever state taxes that are assessed on workers of that state.

When I entered the military, I did so in California. When my parents moved back to Washington, for paperwork purposes, I changed my home of record to Washington too. There is one real good reason to choose WA for a HoR...no state income tax. (and then when I got out of the military, I stayed in WA. till here 42+ years later.)

You said you had a brother in WA? If it is agreeable with him, use his address as your HoR until you get out of the military...You might just decide to stay too. When you are visiting your brother, get a WA drivers license, register to vote, and you will become a Washingtonian, even if you are in Afganistan in the military.

 

[NavyLCDR]

So what is incorrect and would create an illegal purchase? Seven gun shops in three states had no problem with any of this, and six of them do alot of business with military members stationed in their locales; so I'll trust to their advice and business methods.

I have maintained a Wyoming Driver's License since 1984. I have not been a resident of Wyoming since 1988. Again, the definition of state of residence in CFR is VERY CLEAR.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...iv8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1&idno=27

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b).

My first set of permanent duty orders was to Windsor, Connecticut. Because I had an Active Duty Military ID Card and permanent orders to Connecticut, I was a resident of Connecticut for the purposes of firearms transactions, according to the underlined portion above.

When I was stationed in Connecticut, I actually lived in Massachusetts. Every morning I would wake up in Mass, and drive to CT. At night I would drive back to Mass to go to bed in my military housing unit there. Since I was present in Mass WITH THE INTENTION OF MAKING A HOME THERE, I was also a resident of Massachusetts for the purposes of firearms transactions, which is the bold part of the above statute. During that time period, I had dual and equal states of residence, Mass and CT. This situation is explained clearly by the ATF on page 180, question (B11) of this document:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

During the time that I was ordered to CT and lived in Mass, I maintained a driver's license from Wyoming, for tax purposes was a resident of Wyoming, and voted in Wyoming by absentee ballot. My mother lived in Wyoming. HOWEVER - FOR THE PURPOSES OF FIREARMS TRANSACTIONS I WAS IN NO WAY, SHAPE or FORM A RESIDENT OF WYOMING. Even if I visited my mother while on leave, I was not present and have not been present in Wyoming with the intention of making a home there. Visiting relatives does not count as clearly explained by example 1 of 27 CFR 478.11:

Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

The "loophole" that you say applies to ALL military members only applies if the military member actually, physically lives in one state and is ordered to another, like I was ordered to CT, but lived in Mass. It does NOT apply to military members who hold a driver's license, pay taxes and vote in a state that they do not PHYSICALLY maintain a presence in WITH THE INTENTION OF MAKING A HOME there.

It would be completely 100% illegal for me to walk into a gun shop in Wyoming, show my Wyoming driver's license, claim Wyoming as my state of residence and purchase a handgun because even though I have visited family several times in Wyoming, I have not been present in Wyoming WITH THE INTENTION OF MAKING A HOME THERE since 1988.

If a Wyoming gun store were to make the sale to me, everything ON PAPER would APPEAR to be legit....there would be a Wyoming driver's license number on the form 4473, there would be a relative's Wyoming address on the form 4473, and Wyoming would be written in as state of residence. But the sale would still be ILLEGAL, and I would commit a felony. And, if I brought that gun back into my real state of residence, I would commit a second felony in doing so.

As a side note - my Wyoming driver's license has an address in Washington state on it, which is my actual state of residence.

 

[Grmlin]

I was stationed in Japan, went home on leave got my conceal carry and purchased a handgun and rifle. Everyone from the Police Chief to the gun dealer knew I was stationed over seas and had been for almost two years. When I got station here in N.C. I had conceal carry permits in two states. I asked if it was legal before getting it. I was told that since I was stationed here I was eligable even though I was not a resident of N.C.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I was stationed in Japan, went home on leave got my conceal carry and purchased a handgun and rifle. Everyone from the Police Chief to the gun dealer knew I was stationed over seas and had been for almost two years. When I got station here in N.C. I had conceal carry permits in two states. I asked if it was legal before getting it. I was told that since I was stationed here I was eligable even though I was not a resident of N.C.

Which is absolutely no proof that you met the Federal definition of resident for firearms transactions. Good ol' boy gun dealers can easily illegally sell a gun knowing that if the paperwork looks right there is 99% chance nothing will ever be said about it, or they might not even know the intricacies of Federal law.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Being stationed overseas in no way, shape or form makes my Home of Record state magically become my state of residence for firearms transactions, any more than being stationed half way across the continental United States. If I am not present there WITH THE INTENTION OF LIVING THERE, or have permanent orders there....I am not a resident there for the purpose of firearms transactions.

 

[Rob0321]

As NAVYLCDR said, the orders are what makes it legal for you to purchase a firearm in that state.

Being stationed in CA with a home of record of NY (two gun friendly states, right ) I purchased several handguns and two long guns, the long guns in NY and the handguns in CA. Being stationed in Japan, I stored my guns in NY with my family and didn't purchase much of anything.

It is your PCS orders that are going to allow you to purchase a weapon in any given state. They have to assign you to that state.

 

[VPLthrneck]

You're to caught up with the "intention of living there" phrase. While you might have decided to "intend to live there," at most the places you were stationed, for most military members they have no intention of living where they are stationed while on active duty, much less after they get out of active duty. I know I had no intention of ever living in North Carolina, California, Okinawa, or Washington. So hence going home on leave is technically not a vacation or anything of the such, but a form of "maintaining a residence." Same as being stationed overseas; most people have no intention of living there, but are there for work purposes; i.e. under orders. So it falls to reason that the place they "intend to live" is most likely their home of record. Thus making it legal to purchase a firearm once they are back in their home state. Just as being under permanent duty orders makes it legal to purchase a firearm in the state they are stationed in.

Now since your Wyoming license has a Washington address, you have basically told the state of Wyoming, that you have no intention of living there, and any smart gun dealer would not even attempt to make the sale. One year I had to renew my Montana license so when I was home on leave, I asked about having my Washington address put on there and the answer was basically that it would not happen. The lady said something about if I wanted a Washington address I needed to get a Washington license. But every state is different in their rules and that means one needs to be sure about where they want to make home; or "intend to live."

Example 2. A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Now I would go back to the same place in Montana every May/June timeframe for 20 days. This would fit the example of a person maintaining a residence in two states. Similar to the snowbirds that flock to AZ at the same time every year.

 

[NavyLCDR]

You're to caught up with the "intention of living there" phrase.

Only because it happens to be THE ONLY definition of state of residence in Federal law, besides having permanent orders to a state.

And yes, "intention of making a home there" is open to interpretation. But there clearly must be more "intention" than simply holding a driver's license, registered to vote, paying taxes and having relatives in a state. Those items alone are not sufficient to establish "intention of making a home there" for military members.