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Military Question regarding state of residency

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Desert Scorpion, Oct 9, 2012.

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  1. Desert Scorpion

    Desert Scorpion Member

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    Well; thanks to all of you for the discussion on this topic; it would seem unfortunately the law is up for some interpretation. As to residency; and looking at it by definition I'm technically from no state as I don't have a residency there just a piece of plastic with some address on it where I no longer live. Very weird situation that I find to be mind blowing; and this isn't the first time iv fallen under weird legal issues; look at my older post California and Illinois have both given me issues. I hope raising this topic will find an answer for not only me but future soldiers who may have the same issue and can see this post. I will be emailing a large FFL business and seeing what they have to say, the smartest thing may be to ask three separate ones and combine answers as many FFL may not even now what I'm talking about or say simply no we can sell just because they don't really care. So this will be interesting, if anyone knows an FFL please ask them about this topic and post it so we can compare answers.
     
  2. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    I am an FFL. Unless you can show me some sort of government documentation (e.g. your military orders) showing that you're posted in a state other than IL, I'm going to have to use your DL and FOID.
     
  3. Desert Scorpion

    Desert Scorpion Member

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    Would my DL and FOID work in your state?
     
  4. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    One more thing to think about. When you fill out the form 4473 you write in your current residence address and swear under penalty of perjury that the info is correct. It is a federal felony to lie about your current residence address on the form.
     
  5. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    As an IL resident I couldn't sell to you if you didn't have them.

    I'd also have to check IL's laws to make sure whatever you wanted to purchase isn't prohibited in your state.

    Frankly, many FFL's will shy away from selling you anything since your state's laws are so screwy. The same goes for out-of-state buyers from CA, NY, MA, and other states known for having harsher gun control laws.
     
  6. Desert Scorpion

    Desert Scorpion Member

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    Than you for your input
     
  7. fatelk

    fatelk Member

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    I'm not any kind of legal expert by any means, but it looks to me that this right here could be the main problem? Is your IL DL even valid, since you no longer have any connection to that address? If you never plan on returning there, wouldn't it be better from both a logical and legal perspective to get a drivers license and establish residency in a state that you would most likely intend to come back to when you do come back to the states?

    Maybe you should decide where you want to "come home" to.
    As to Washington state, can you see yourself making your home there when you return? If you go there, stay at your brother's house to establish residency with the full intention of returning to live there once you've fulfilled your obligations with the U.S. military, and you get a Washington DL with this real physical address as opposed to an old invalid one in IL, as a U.S. citizen wouldn't you be more a resident of Washington state than anywhere else?

    Again, I'm a novice in this stuff and far greater legal minds have already weighed in. I'm just wondering about a couple thoughts I had. Nobody is suggesting you break or bend any laws, and it's clear that you want to do it right and have no criminal intent, but it does seem to me that your circumstances as a service member stationed overseas must come into consideration somehow.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2012
  8. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    As soon as Desert Scorpion executes permanent change of station orders to a state, he becomes a resident of that state for the purposes of firearms transactions. At that point it does not matter where his driver's license is from. He only has to comply with the laws of the state he is ordered to (unless he is buying a rifle or shotgun outside the state he is ordered to). Once he executes orders to a state, the only identification required for an FFL transfer is his active duty military ID card and a copy of his orders. He is not required to show a driver's license or any other ID to an FFL.
     
  9. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Member

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    For a long gun, yes ... provided I followed Illinois rules.

    For a handgun ... nope.

    Might I suggest you get "residency" in some other more gun friendly (and tax friendly??) state ... Florida and/or Texas come to mind. Won't help you on the handgun thing (have to go through an FFL in your state of residence, federal law) but at least should leave some more $ in your pocket.
     
  10. brickeyee

    brickeyee Member

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    YOU are the one being asinine.

    If you are in the military and stationed outside the USA you DO NOT have a state of residence for purchasing firearms.

    You jut do not.

    Taxes, driver's licenses, home of record, etc. have NOTHING to do with BATFE and residence for purchasing firearms.

    Military folks are not using any 'loophole' to purchase in their duty state.

    Federal law defines them as residents of the state their permanent orders have sent them to.

    It gets even weirder sometimes when they have orders that show one state, but their physical duty station is in another (and they occasionally live in a third).

    This happens around Washington, DC on a regular basis.

    Permanent orders may list Washington, DC.

    Duty station may be at the Pentagon (in Arlington, Virginia).

    They may have a spouse and home in Maryland.
     
  11. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    Again, exactly correct on all points, brickeyee! And this isn't a permanent situation for the service member. The same day that they execute orders to a state again, they become residents of that state for the purpose of firearms transactions.
     
  12. VPLthrneck

    VPLthrneck Member

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    So loophole might not have been the correct term; but military members, college students, and snowbirds need to be aware of what is allowed as per the ATF.

    ATF Rule 2010-6 http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2010-6.pdf

    This breaks down what does or does not qualify as residency, how to prove residency, and what FFL's can use to verify residency.

    The previous paragraph to the first quote states that college students are considered residents of the state that their on or off campus housing is located. Very similar to military members being considered residents of the state the have orders to. Prior to that the document states that FFL's must be provided with proof of residency, and lists a variety of ways that residency can be proved.
    It then goes to this:
    OK, that makes sense; an extended period of time could be considered under military orders to an overseas base. Then it continues:
    So the ATF reinforces that when a person is back from being overseas, that person is a resident of a state if they can prove it.

    But what is the proof? This:
    So, as per the ATF, to prove residency what you need is "valid identification documents." And there it is in black and white: driver's license, tax records, voter's registration, or vehicle registration.

    Also the ATF does not consider home/real estate/land ownership as proof of residency as a way of preventing real estate investors from playing the system.
     
  13. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

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    It's called the soldiers and sailors civil relief act...

    You must declare any of the 50 states as your state of legal residence upon entry. Most declare either their home state or a state with no income tax.

    But this is for tax, drivers license and and vehicle registration purposes.... and doesn't change BATF and state regs re. firearms.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2012
  14. Librarian

    Librarian Member

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    Right. The code is in 50 USC.

    One can read the act by following this link: http://www.justice.gov/crt/spec_topics/military/scra.php
     
  15. fatelk

    fatelk Member

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    Interesting. To me this seems to support exactly what I was wondering about. Come to WA state, get a WA drivers license with the intention of making it your home when you return to the U.S., and it is legally your state of residence when you are physically there. This sure seems logical and reasonable to me, but I do realize that laws are not always so, and just because something seems reasonable to me doesn't make it so.

    Just curious, and please don't flame me if I'm wrong as I could easily be wrong, but how does this statement jive with the ATF ruling quoted above?
     
  16. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    It comes down to mostly a matter of personal integrity and whether the person will honestly attempt to comply with the law - or just take an action required to purchase a firearm knowing full well they are violating the law.

    Does Desert Scorpion really have intentions of physically residing in WA state when he returns from Germany? Does he hope to get orders to WA state next? Does he hope to live in WA state after he gets out of the military?

    Or does he just have family in WA state that he VISITS occasionally.

    Many people, it seems, have a very hard time understanding what "present with an intention of making a home" means. According to the examples given in the Federal Regulation there must be some sort of actual residence established that is used for living in that state for part of the year on more than a visiting relatives, hunting trip, or vacation basis.
     
  17. fatelk

    fatelk Member

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    That's what I was thinking. To really do it right he would need to decide where he wants to live when the time comes. I would think a person should do that anyhow, but can understand how it might be a little different for someone in the military, especially not having any solid connections to any one place back here in the states.

    Thanks for the reply NavyLCDR. Desert Scorpion- I hope it all works out well for you. Thank you for your service to our country.
     
  18. BADUNAME30

    BADUNAME30 Member

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    Scorpion, is it possible for your brother to just buy the gun and then once you return home and get squared away, have it transfered to you ?
    Or, maybe your folks ?
     
  19. brickeyee

    brickeyee Member

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    Did you even read your own posting?
    Do you understand what it says?

    you have to RESIDE in the state, AND show intention to make a home ad THEN you can purchase.

    Fail to reside, fail to show intention to make a home, you have NO state or residence for firearms purchases.

    It is a bad intersection of a host of laws.
    And some states have additional restrictions.
     
  20. fatelk

    fatelk Member

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    I'm hesitant to post again, but I am still a little curious considering the last post. I'm not trying to argue or challenge anyone's authority on the matter, so please be patient with me.

    For the sake of argument let's say a service member stationed overseas (Bob) comes home on leave and decides to move. He packs all of his belongings into a duffel bag at his former roommate's apartment in the state of Florida, says goodby and hops a bus to Montana to stay with Uncle Joe for the few days left until he has to go back. He tosses his belongings in the closet in Uncle Joe's spare room with the full intention of making Montana his permanent home when he gets out of the military, then goes down to the DMV and gets a Montana drivers license. He no longer has any connection to the state of Florida. Anytime he comes back to the U.S. his home is now Uncle Joe's spare room, and that is reflected on his ID. He's not there on a hunting trip or a vacation. It is his home in every sense when he is not obligated elsewhere working for Uncle Sam. He may be residing there for only a few days, but he is residing with the full intention of making it his home.

    Is he not now a legal Montana resident? I don't see any minimum amount of time that he must reside in the state, just that for the purpose of purchasing a firearm he appears legally able to do so during the time that he actually resides in the state. A hunting trip or vacation doesn't cut the mustard because in those cases there is no intention to make it a home, but in Bob's case it's his only home other than that which Uncle Sam provides overseas. I'm not a lawyer; what am I missing? That's a sincere question, not a challenge, so please take it as such.

    http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2010-6.pdf
    It looks to me that short term stays are an issue in regards to intention, not time.

    ADDED: I thought of one thing I was missing here; it's going to take more than a few days to establish residency for the purpose of obtaining a drivers license. It's been a long time since I've even had to change my address on my drivers license, but I believe you need to have a utility bill, mortgage doc, credit card statement, etc. to prove physical address. This certainly takes more than a few days.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
  21. JimP

    JimP Member

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    You are ALL confusing the issue. There is: 1) a Home of Record (usually where you entered the service from); 2) there is a "Domicile" (usually where you live(d) or intend to remain; 3) there is "Resident" (usually where you are right now as a result of military orders).

    Sometimes the three meet at various points; sometimes they don't.

    The rules are written for tax purposes and are a result of the Internal Revenue Code. For instance, you can have a home of record of Massachusetts (where you entered the service from) and have orders stationing you in North Carolina (currently residing due to military orders). I had such an arrangement. When I was stationed in Texas, I bought a house, registered to vote and got a Texas drivers license. These are INDICATIVE of being a Texas resident and prevents Massachusetts from challenging my State residence (legal) change from Mass. to Texas in order to avouid State taxes, (Texas has no state income tax).

    You can claim almost anything you want on your LES as your official state residence but it doesn't keep the state from challenging your election. You can't simply get a drivers license in another state and then not pay income taxes to any of the competeting states (unless that particular state has no income tax). And EVEN THEN, you may be challenged by your losing state to prove the incidents of residency (voting;house;drivers license). Every state accepts all three as indicative of lawful change of residency (as will the Fed court in a conflicts case). The more tenuous of a connection you claim, the less you may be successful.

    As to the OP, you are a resident of Illinois and will have to abide by Illinois law unless the OTHER state you get stationed in allows you to purchase firearms with your oders. Currently, I am a Texas resident stationed in Illinois and have bought several firearms in THIS state. I cannot think of another state that I would be able to buy a firearm (other than Texas and Illinois). I KNOW the state of my HOR (Mass.) would NOT allow me to buy a firearm nor allow me any incidents of residency despite me having that as a HOR and growing up there.

    Clear as mud??
     
  22. fatelk

    fatelk Member

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    I see. Actually I don't, but that's OK. There are obviously military rules and tax rules regarding residency that I'm completely ignorant of, having never lived outside my home state. I was just going off of the wording of the ATF ruling in the link VLPthrneck provided, and that seemed pretty clear. Thanks for muddying, er, I mean clearing that up.:)

    To the OP, again, I hope it all works out for you. I would love to have a BAR, but they're a little out of my price range. My grandfather used to tell me about training with them during WWII, and how much he liked them. I think it would be a real kick to shoot one some day.
     
  23. longshot7.62x51

    longshot7.62x51 Member

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    Ok simple awnser is to call but my personal experience is this. regardless of the state iv lived in/ been staioned in if you use your mil id you will need a copy of the PCS ORDERS saying your staioned in that state,or a driver license from the state your in. Being staioned in Germany was a huge pain in my ass because I was unable to buy a gun in any state besides CA which we all know is hard any way. So from my experience you sol sorry man.
     
  24. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator

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    This is getting more muddled and less helpful. Probably the best advice was back in post 8:

    Closed.
     
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