Military Surplus Picture Thread

[Sarge]

My WW 2 ruskie stuff. The top M44 is actually a chicom typ 53.
This is a an old photo and I have added several rifles to this pile to include a couple more SVTs and 91/30s and an M38.
Well it has done it to me again!!! This photos is in - SVT40 debate.
The hell with it, I'm done for now. More later.
Sarge

 

[ulflyer]

A few M1 Carbines

Things I play with.

 

[tahoe2]

milsurps

thought I would add a couple more;

1893 Spanish Mannlicher (bubba) in 7x57
1909 Argentine Cavalry Carbine in 7.65x53
1908 Brazilian Cavalry Carbine in 7.65x53
Yugoslavian M24/47 short rifle in 8x57

 

[vaupet]

@sarge 13:
nice collection, but interested if you say your fal or l1a1 is select fire: normally the british l1a1 is semi-auto only.

During the falkland conflict many britisch soldiers picked up argentine fal's in select fire, but they quickly returned to their l1a1 because semi auto and careful aiming was considered bether than ammo wasting in full-auto.

just curious. (mine is a 1959 Lee-Enfield build with original SUIT sight)

 

[tark]

White Walker, is that RB Springfield all original? You mentioned that it had a R. I. bolt in it....is the gun a Springfield? Do you have the original bolt. I ask, because the gun, all original, is worth five figures...well into five figures.

I live 30 miles away from the Rock Island Auction Co, and the Island itself. A RB Springfield sold at auction a while back for five figures and it was a parts gun! I have been to the Museum at the arsenal and stuck my nose within twelve inches of serial #1, which was never altered, unlike S.A. #1. It was proofed, and taken directly to the Museum. Rock Island continued to make RB guns until told to stop and the modifications to turn them into a Knife bayonet gun commenced. While the modifications were in progress The change to the spitzer bullet was made and the barrels were set back and rechambered to 30-06.

The rarest 1903 in existence is a gun modified to the 1906 specs, that has a barrel still chambered in 30-03. No one knows how many exist but it is a mere handful. The army was very efficient at recalling and changing the guns. Just like they were with the gas trap Garands.

You wouldn't happen to have one of those, would you?



You are right that RB Springfields are about

 

[tark]

oops, forgot to delete the last line

 

[White Walker]

Tark, the rifles receiver is stamped Springfield Armory. It came with a Springfield C7 marked straight handled bolt. Since I already had an original RB Rock Island polished bolt, I went ahead and put it on the RB rifle. Not being able to locate an original Springfield RB bolt with original polish, I'm pretty happy to have the Rock Island bolt for the rifle. Its extractor and handle are nitered and the extractor ring is still originally polished. When I got the rifle, it was missing a correct solid RB rear band (it had a split band). I mounted a correct RB stacking swivel, "early" seriffed safety, all thread cut off screw, the follower and spring were from an 03A3 so I replaced those. It had a later butt plate with the larger trap so I put on a correct butt plate with the small trap and assembly numbers, replaced the late trigger guard with an original rod bayonet one, put on a correct early trigger and sear, added the missing stock bushing for the rear guard screw (the original unissued stock had never yet been fitted with one), put a correct RB rear sight leaf with 25 yd. increments on, put a correctly knurled RB cocking piece on, added an early and correct type 1 oiler with correct RB brush and thong, and "correctly" mounted the front sight on the barrel. The barrel was off of an original unaltered 30-03 chambered rifles with the 05 type rear sight.
My guess is that long, long ago somebody cannibalized an early and unaltered 03 in 30-03 to use the barrel. The rifle is all correct now for a RB rifle.
I've read that the figure of 100 or so Rod Bayonet rifles in existence today includes about 50 or so "unaltered" rifles and about 50 or so rifles built up from original and once much more common Rod Bayonet parts. Mine is one of those.
Yes, I too have seen rebuilt rifles with several incorrect parts sell for between $7,500.00 and $13,000.00. Some of these had shorter 30-06 barrels on them.
I think my rifle is one of the better ones in existence. Although it isn't currently valued in the $35,000.00 to $60,000.00 range of an unaltered Rod Bayonet rifle, it's value is still increasing all the while and I'm fortunate indeed to not have to come up with all of the correct parts today from scratch. Such a search for correct parts today would take many years to compile and would be extremely expensive. For $2,300.00, I got into this one pretty cheap. I recently saw a purported RB front band sell on eBay. However it appears to be made up with welding and is incorrectly contoured and is buggered up where the screw fits at the base. It was going for $100.00 at the time but I don't know what the final bid on it was.
As far as anybody knows for sure, Rock Island No. 1 Rod Bayonet rifle is the only such R.I. Rifle to be all original. Although Rock Island continued to produce parts, it's thought that the later starting time for Rock Island Arsenal to be up and ready for full production resulted in possibly just the one rifle being fully assembled before the decision was made to halt production in January of 1905 pending a decision on the bayonet problem. Then of course, the decision to change from 30-03 to 30-06 held things up some more. Rock Island Arsenal had their racks full of almost assembled rifles waiting for the final word on how they were going to be finished.
Oh, the serial number is in the 6,000 range.

 

[White Walker]

Just an interesting note, our son and daughter not having the slightest interest in any of our firearms, I'd asked my youngest niece's husband, who is a Kansas City police officer, if he'd be interested in receiving our guns some day as a gift when we can't get around so well any more. He never even responded. I can't imagine any man not being interested in them, but such is the case. Amazing...

 

[Sarge]

@sarge 13:
nice collection, but interested if you say your fal or l1a1 is select fire: normally the british l1a1 is semi-auto only.
During the falkland conflict many britisch soldiers picked up argentine fal's in select fire, but they quickly returned to their l1a1 because semi auto and careful aiming was considered bether than ammo wasting in full-auto.
just curious. (mine is a 1959 Lee-Enfield build with original SUIT sight)

Actually my FN/FAL is an Isreali import. Yes it is select fire.
I really don't understand anyone having problems with accuracy or controllability with this rifle on full auto!
I can put a 3 or 4 rd burst in the chest of a sillouete at 100-150 yds every time all day long. That is why I enjoy shooting it so much - it is Very accurate and Very controllable compared to most other FAs I've shot.
I currently own 9 or 10 different FAs and the FN/FAL is one of the most fun to shoot!
Sarge

 

[Sarge]

Next installment

Here are some of my WW 2 German gunz.
Sarge

 

[tark]

White Walker, the RIA #1 is indeed the only unaltered RB 1903. There is a small placard next to the gun at the Museum telling the story of S.A. #1. It was modified to the 1905 specs and sent overseas to fight the war. A lieutenant in an infantry company noticed it and took it away from the soldier it was issued to and it is on display at S.A. National Historic Site, but I suspect you know that already. You seem to be very knowledgeable about 1903s.

Have you ever been to the R.I.A. Museum? It is one of the finest in the country, and actually has a better display of U.S Martial arms than the S.A. Museum. There is Model Shop Garand serial number 2 along with a second Gas trap Garand. There is the only 1892 Krag Carbine in existence. There is a 1901 prototype Springfield. Looks like a 1903 but has a 29 inch bbl. There are six guns on display that were picked up on the battlefield....some place called Little Bighorn. There is every prototype gun leading up to the development of the M-1. A John Garand primer actuated gun is there. Four Pedersons in 276 cal. Pederson devices? They have several. I could go on for an hour. The interesting thing about the Museum is that they have a gun in the basement, in storage, for every one on display. Space constrictions.

They have about 500 guns on display. For anyone passing through on I-80, it is worth the one hour side trip. But once you get there, you will stay a lot longer than that.

 

[White Walker]

Tark, no, I've never been to the Rock Island Museum. I'd like to go someday soon though. I'll talk to my wife about that so that she can keep it in mind when next she plans a trip for us. Thanks for the Great information!
I've gathered my information and knowledge from experienced collectors and personal observations of 1903 Springfield's since I've been interested in them for almost a half century. However, I think that the advent of the internet has greatly enabled folks to become knowledgeable collectors of the rifle. Whenever somebody has an observation to share, their information can now be readily seen and shared with everyone thanks to excellent forums such as this!

Here is a 1920 National Match 03 Springfield that was made for the Camp Perry match that fiscal year. Until 1921 only military personel and no civilian shooters were allowed to purchase these National Match rifles. The rifle's condition would indicate that after this rifle was purchased at Camp Parry in 1920 by someone who was in the military, it was infrequently used or handled. Maybe the owner died. Maybe he just never shot in competition again. He was almost certainly a veteran of the 1st World War. Wherever the rifle was kept for the past 95 years, it has survived rather well. In any event, there were 3000 of the 1920 National Match 1903's made. Those rifles that weren't sold to military personnel at the 1920 Camp Perry Matches were later disassembled and those components that could be were used again for assembling the next years National Match rifles of 1921. I would venture a guess that there aren't too many of the 1920 National Match 03"s still around in any condition.
The following year, in 1921, the National Match rifles were the very first that were made available to non military shooters (to open a larger market and demand for them) and with all of the hype, the misconception resulted over time in believing that the 1921 rifles were the first National Match 1903's to be designed as N.M. rifles from the ground up when actually National Match 1903's had been assembled exclusively as National Match rifles for over ten years before. The idea that all N.M. 1903's before 1921 were just modified and upgraded issue rifles is incorrect.
Anyway, here's mine... I don't know how well any of my rifles shoot because I've never fired any of them. They all have pristine bores though for all of the good it does me. My eyesight isn't real sharp anymore and so I just keep them clean and in a gun cabinet.

 

[swopjan]

The Rock Island Museum sounds like it just became #1 on my list of places to visit before I die.

Here's one I haven't seen on this thread yet. 1916 Berthier carbine. I had a little fun walking into a gun store in Austin and asking for 'M16 clips'

Had an original Steyr M95 sling on it for some reason which promptly broke when my dad slung it. Going to have to have it repaired one of these days and stick it on my M95.

 

[tahunua001]

it's been a while since I posted these boards, here's the two more recent babies of the collection.

 

[rondog]

Some of you guys really make a feller feel inadequate.....

 

[tark]

Anyone who is in my part of the world and wants to visit the R.I.A. Museum, let me know on the forum beforehand. I'll Meet you at your motel and give you the grand tour. The Museum is closed Monday and Tuesday, if I remember right . It is open from 1PM to five.

 

[primalmu]

Here's my Enfield that, I must say, makes an excellent wall hanger!

 

[tark]

White Walker, you have some incredible 1903s! I am insanely jealous! Well, darn close, anyway. My best Milsurp is a broomhandle mauser, 7.63, with matching wood holster.....that was never fired after leaving the factory. It is still gooped with cosmoline. Its collector condition can be described as 99+% and of course it will never be fired. As near as can be determined it was made in the early thirties. (Damn Frenchmen....It's a long story, I won't even get started)

I forgot to mention General Buford's Calvary Saber on display at the Museum, you remember him....He of Gettysburg fame.... There is also a National Cemetery On the Island, along with a Confederate Cemetery. The Island was a Prison Camp during the Civil War. Not a very hospitable one, I am afraid....There are almost a thousand souls buried there. There is also a field containing about forty military vehicles, from tanks to cannons. There is a M4A6 Sherman tank that was knocked out of action during the battle of the bulge, and an Atomic cannon.

I'm sorry... I am off topic.... but kind of not.... If milsurps interest one, this museum is one of the finest in the country.

I get the tinglies and goose bumps

 

[tark]

Forgot to delete that last line again! I was about to say I get goose bumps and feel humbled, every time I go to the Island.

It is Hallowed ground.

 

[highpower]

1898 Krag I picked up a few months ago,




1884 Trapdoor




1861 Springfield, issued to Horatio Brown A co., 10th Connecticut Volunteers.

 

[White Walker]

Hey thanks tark! Glad that you like them!

 

[White Walker]

highpower, what's the back ground story of your 1861 Springfield?

 

[7thCavScout]

Figured it out.

 

[highpower]

I bought it from a gentleman in Connecticut that had picked it up from the family of Horatio Brown. Seems that no one in the family wanted it anymore, so it came up for sale.

My research on Brown shows that he enlisted on August 6, 1862 in the 10th Conn. Vol into Co A and was mustered out on June 5, 1865. At this point it is hard to say for sure that it is the very rifle he carried throughout the war, or if it is one he kept as a souvenir.

The 10th was in several major battles from Feb. 1862 right up until the end at Appomattox Courthouse in April of 1865

 

[White Walker]

Pretty Neat!