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"Militia" Stupidity = Talking Point for Anti-2A Types

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by HorseSoldier, Mar 12, 2011.

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  1. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    Alaskan "sovereign citizens" plotting to assassinate LEOs and judges.

    This all flows out of the fact that their ring leader, Schaeffer Cox, managed to get himself arrested by violating one of about two restrictions on concealed carry here in Alaska and decided that all out war with the government was preferable to appearing for arraignment on a misdemeanor charge.

    And is surely going to provide quality talking points for anti-2nd Amendment types all over the country.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2011
  2. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    I personally think the requirement to inform an officer that you are carrying concealed is ridiculous. Apparently this guy thought the same. I'm glad PA does not have such a requirement.

    I cannot condone this guy's plans, but I will comment that they are not plans born from irrational hatred but from perceived injustice and intended retribution, rightly or wrongly.
     
  3. HBrebel

    HBrebel Member

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    Assassination of judges and LEO is not the answer, but if you think that this guy is wrong for standing up, you must be drinking the cool aide. If we stood up as one people, we might have half a chance against these devils that "govern" us. Problem is, divide and conquer works every time and that is what they have done to us.
     
  4. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    It's completely reasonable in a state where we let anyone carry with no permitting system whatsoever.

    The ringleader in this also tried to indict the judge assigned to his case, because the US government doesn't have the right to judge him. I'm actually pretty much in favor of completely suspending the firearms rights of people whose perception of injustice and desire for retribution is that far out of whack.

    So, wait, what did he stand up for again? His right to violate like the only gun law we have in this state? Or his right to fail to appear for his day in court? He seems to mostly have been interested in killing people because there was a warrant issued for his arrest relating to his FTA for court.

    So are you really supporting his right to not stand up like a grown man and show up for court where he can present his defense? And instead celebrating his right to act like an angry 14 year old brat, only in this case with access to followers and class III firearms? Care to imagine what it would have looked like if him and his little gang of winners had actually carried out just one of their planned attacks with a fully automatic weapon? Think maybe Obama et al dream of that sort of thing every night when they consider gun policy and law?

    The fact that people are hemming and hawing about how this guy wasn't really such a bad guy for plotting murder ("okay, murder is bad, but y'know, he got arrested and all and so it's understandable he'd be mad . . .") suggested we (gun owners) are likely to ultimately lose the 2nd Amendment fight -- to ourselves.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2011
  5. Vyacheslav

    Vyacheslav member

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    how is it reasonable? the officer has no reason to know that you are carrying
     
  6. Danb1215

    Danb1215 Member

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    I also agree that is is completely unreasonable to have a must inform law. Vermont has no concealed carry permit and is not must inform, and it doesn't seem to be an issue.
     
  7. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't understand how a lunatic fringe minigroup claiming some sort of militia status gives any real traction to Anti-RKBA groups. The small tinfoil poisoned groups are reviled by everyone outside of the anti government fringe.
     
  8. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    I'm not saying it gives anti-gun groups valid traction, just that it will provide media and gun control talking points, particularly given the nature of the kit involved.
     
  9. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    Or you could just assume everyone is armed, bad guys are not going to tell you before they shoot you anyways so a duty to inform doesn't really keep cops from being shot.
    You can consider whether you can tolerate dealing with a population presumed to be entirely armed when choosing to become a LEO in that state. Or whether the thought would make you excessively fearful or defensive.


    While a requirement to tell a LEO does nothing to keep them from being shot because those planning to shoot are not going to inform before drawing, it does cause LEO in some cases to suddenly be much more inclined to shoot the citizen with no ill intent that is carrying. A movement can become more easily interpreted as a threat.
    That same movement for the wallet or ID, opening a door or compartment, or showing them something puts them more on edge, even though logically the fact that you informed them means you are probably not a threat. Emotions and adrenaline are not always logical, and you just triggered a physical response upping the tension of the situation.

    There is situations where informing the LEO is a good idea, and situations where it is a bad idea. Yet when it is law even the bad scenarios require informing.
    Before a patdown after making your hands very visible might be a good time.
    A legal requirement within a short time of initial contact as in some states, while in a potentially fluid and unclear scenario before they even know what is going on may not be, and simply increases your chance of being shot as a citizen.
     
  10. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

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    Here's the thing.

    I have a couple of colleagues and acquaintances that I used to consider to be reasonable, and intelligent people.

    They have since become entirely dedicated to the premise that the "Tea Baggers" are out to {______________fill in the blank, with your selection of sentiments ranging from "destroy the middle class" to "reverse 100 years of social progress and justice" etc & ad nauseum}.

    In order to justify this world view, they have latched onto any phenomena that fits their theory as proof. Subsequently, they buy into an ancient smear*, and trot out lists of racially motivated crimes emanating from white supremacists groups as evidence of the "tea baggers" dedication to political violence.

    Eventually, these same people *will* point to these ijits in Alaska as proof.

    And you know what?

    We cannot do a damned thing about either class of morons, other than to soundly repudiate them both.





    *Modern manifestation of Ancient smear: white supremacists = militia freaks = conservatives = republicans = tea partiers
     
  11. Remo223

    Remo223 member

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    I don't blame the guy for not complying with the stupid law. But if he is plotting charles bronson vigilante style revenge before even stating his case in court that's REALLY out there.
     
  12. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    Horsesoldier
    as I assume you are APD
    how do your respond when you pull someone like me over one the Glenn or Boniface for going 5 over (going with the flow of traffic...)

    And I tell you, 'officer, IAW with Alaska statute, I am informing you that I am armed'?

    I understand, it got constitutional carry through the legislature,
    but the real pain is that I have to ask every time I go in a friends home, DO YOU??
    because, from what I read, you should ask if you are carrying not in the line of duty.
     
  13. Remo223

    Remo223 member

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    Oh poor baby. Let me get my violin.

    Lets make sure we understand YOUR predicament. You worry about how one loony in alaska is going to make it tougher for YOU to deal with YOUR friends? Are you kidding me?

    Its not about you bud. Or your friends. I really couldn't care less what the situation is between you and your friends.
     
  14. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    I personally leave people in possession of their firearms, though not everyone does. And it can sometimes create additional risk if, for instance, you then learn that the guy is facing arrest or having his vehicle impounded or some such. Unless someone just really sets off my spider sense or whatever I don't see the point in disarming someone who's law abiding enough to comply with the the requirement to inform.

    The law is a very useful tool when dealing with those whose intent is not lawful -- gang members and felons in possession will not, for instance, ever mention they're armed.

    It is a pain, and I also do -- and you're right, the waivers for carrying as a peace officer only come into play when acting under color of authority. And if I hung out in bars, I wouldn't go armed to also comply with the law (and because amazingly stupid things happen with alcohol in the mix . . .).
     
  15. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    And this is why gun owners are often their own worst enemies when it comes to the hearts and minds game for the undecided chunk of the population.
     
  16. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    Don't forget, places like Alaska, Montana etc.
    seem to attract 'End of the Roaders'
    people who, for what ever reason,
    live in the 'wild' or away from people or in this case 'land of the free'

    And they don't really like governments, or actually, most anybody else.
    so loonies with guns, not much past that, hell happened in my wife's home town in WV, some of the local tweekers tried to take out the sheriff.

    Edit
    Yeah, I agree Horsesoldier, it would be a nice enhancement for gangmembers, but what about the federal bingo of 5 year in prison for an armed felon? Why isn't that used for most of these guys too?
     
  17. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    Stuff tends to only go federal when there's not only a valid federal charge but a federal agency that wants to get involved, but felon in possession is a state felony charge (MIW 3) and certainly gets pursued when applicable, in my experience.
     
  18. NMGonzo

    NMGonzo Member

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    The guy is a loon and there are ways to stand up in modern civilized society.

    For buddha's sakes, the guy is in Alaska ... how much more LESS restrictive does he want his gun laws?
     
  19. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    This seems like a contradiction. How is a law that does not affect those disinclined to obey it, useful?

    Furthermore, if a person is in fact carrying illegally, he is by definition not required to inform you, because that would be self incrimination.
     
  20. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    It can add 3+ years to their repentance, what might be a written citation for a baggie or two on a banger, is now years at Spring Creek, and a rather open book for further investigation.

    Actually, I should explain, failure to inform is a low class misdemeanor in AK, being armed while in the commission of a crime isn't.
     
  21. Sky

    Sky Member

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    $165,000 back taxes and losing your home can make many bitter and look less than favorable on any government authority figure.

    The situation was certainly not handled well (if reported facts are true) and he and his friends will get more than they bargained for for sure. I would think there might be more to the story than we are reading but in this case we will probably never know. From what I was able to read the guy is an idiot.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2011
  22. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    1) Gangsta or gangsta wannabe or whatever is armed.
    2) They fail to mention this immediately when contacted by law enforcement, as required under AK law.
    3) Officers conduct a completely legal pat search for officer safety purposes during their contact.
    4) Weapon found.
    5) Gang member arrested and hauled down to jail.

    So useful -- yes.
     
  23. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    I don't see where that law has any bearing on this course of events. You could conduct the pat down search anyway. Since they can't be convicted of violating the duty-to-inform law, it serves zero purpose.
     
  24. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    I'm afraid your grasp of the legal system, at least how it works up here in AK, is flawed. If a pat search turns up a weapon that was not declared immediately IAW Alaska law, that person is prosecutable and very convictable.

    If you mean felons specifically, they can (and have been) charged with both felon in possession and failure to report. Nothing under the duty to report statute excuses felons because they're already violating the law.
     
  25. Gouranga

    Gouranga Member

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    Look anti's are going to do what they do no matter what. There will always be ignorant people who will latch on to whatever reasons they give, whatever stats they give, etc. If one nimrod in AK is all it takes to turn someone into a raving anti then really they were always a raving anti.

    As for the comments on this guys legitimacy, I am sorry. This is America, we DO NOT ASSASSINATE our government officials to protest a law. Bear in mind, this guy had no plans to kill anyone for this law until he was caught. It is about him not wanting to pay the price for breaking the law. I will disagree with the anti-2A Congressman, Judge, LEO, etc and argue till I am blue in the face, the second someone pulls out a gun to kill them, I will stand by the side of that Anti and defend them.

    IMO, this guys legitimate beef with the law ended when he decided to counter an unjust misdemeanor by murdering judges and LEO's. So yes, I absolutely do hold it against him.
     
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