MIM Kimbers? Naw, you don't say. [PICS]

[cerberus]

Let the Mfg. Know

I think it's always a good thing to let the Mfg. know when the public is finding out about mechanical failures in their products. I have passed this thread URL along to Kimbers man in charge of Kimbers Custom Shop "This is where repairs are done"

 

[WonderNine]

Uhoh. I'm a marked man.

I better check under the hood tomorrow morning before I start the car.

 

[shooter.45]

I better check under the hood tomorrow morning before I start the car

LOL dont worry they will probably put MIM parts there anyway and they will break...

 

[WonderNine]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[Bainx]

This should not be happening on a pistol that costs $1,052. This should not be happening on a pistol that costs $400.

$1,052....Dear God, I can almost replace my truck engine for that kind of money.
Meanwhile, my Chuckey just keeps on runnin!

 

[deleteall]

About a couple months ago there was some pics of a Kimber grip safety broken in half on 1911 forum.

Ooooo, not good. This one I saw happened within the last day.

PS(edit): Nor is it the one that was posted on the 1911 forum last week.

 

[1911Tuner]

MIM-ber

I swear I'm about convinced that when the Norincos hit the U.S. market, the big 3 bought a few examples, tore'em down for a look-see and
checked a few specs and said: "Uh-ohhhhh...Boys, we gotta put a stop to this! Get on the horn to our congressmen and tell'em that the Commie Chinese are floodin' the market with cheap assault pistols, or we'll all be flippin' burgers at Mickey Dee's."

I'm pokin' around to see if we can at least get Norinco parts with which to
upgrade our MIM filled shake'n'bakes. So far, Marstar keeps tryin' to
steer me to "Top-grade European Parts"...but I'm standin' by my guns
'til I get to SOMEbody who can and will import Norinco repair parts. To hell with politics. I want real steel!

Wally...I'm doin' my best to get a visual on that slidestop...From the sound of it, the slidestop wasn't the only thing outta spec. I'll try again tomorrow when I'm fresh.

Roger on the part about not tryin' to justify substandard parts...I was
like... We cool...We cool...

On the busted grip safety...That's not the first one I've seen, but I've gotten into some pretty heated debates over the virtues of the stuff,
and have pretty much stayed out of the whole thing. If they like MIM, and they trust MIM in a defensive pistol, good luck to'em. I don't have a
real problem with the stuff in a range queen or a toy, but when it's
gonna go with me into harm's way, I want the real McCoy.

Yeeehaaaaaa (That there's a REBEL yell...ya'll)

 

[Black_Talon]

FWIW, and I'm certainly no MIM fan, both of my $2000+ Springfield Professionals have MIM parts in them. Slidestop, safety and disconnector for a start, and maybe more that I'm forgetting. That's no apology for the Kimbers, but just goes to show what the manufacturers are putting even on top of the line guns.

 

[Old Fuff]

Tuner:

At the SHOT Show I learned that the old Detonics Co. is coming back under new ownership. Turned out one of their engineers/designers was staying in the same hotel I was, and on two occasions we had breakfast together.

Anyway, he had nothing but utter contempt for MIM parts, and said that ALL of their principal lockwork parts, including but not limited too: extractors, sears, hammers, disconectors, magazine releases, manual safeties, links, firing pin plates and slide stops WILL BE MACHINED FROM TOOL STEEL BAR STOCK!! There may be light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[wally]

1911Tuner,

Don't rack your brain over my old slide stop. It was a good while back, I mostly shot 200gr lead SWC which would not ever hit it because of the abnormally narrow nose, so I shot the gun quite a lot before I noticed the problem, which also got me started on the wrong track. Took quite some time to figure it out, swapping slide stops and having the problem swap guns convinced me it was the part.

Nothing else was wrong with the gun, at first I thought is was the mag. What was maddening until I relalized it was if it was at it's left most position gun functioned 100% but when it was in its right most position (connecting lever touching the frame) it'd lock the slide open after nearly every shot. Since it could wander between the two extremes it was maddeningly intermittent. I think as things wore a bit more it biased to the right most position and then it happened with a frequency such that I figured out what was going on and swapping slide stops with my Norinco was the proof when the problem switched guns too!

My attempts to slavage it wasted more time that it was worth to replace it, but I'm a sucker about trying to fix things well past the point of diminishing returns -- some folks get sucked into doing cross-word puzzles, I get sucked into trying to figure out why something is broke and how to fix it. Generally pays off for my car or motorcycle, usually for guns, but wasting an entire Saturday driving all over town to find a $2 thermostat to fix a $20 hairdryer when a new replacement was at every cornor drugstore made me consider the need for a 12-step program.

--wally.

 

[Gewehr98]

WonderNine, don't worry.

I better check under the hood tomorrow morning before I start the car.

You're in no danger. Not as long as the intake manifold on my 2001 Chevy truck is still plastic. (And I would never have thought in a million years...)

 

[Tamara]

shooter.45,

Now just own a S&W 1911

Why? You like their MIM parts better than Kimber's MIM parts? (...and since Kimber buys their frame & slide blanks from S&W, do S&W buy their MIM parts from Kimber? )

1911tuner,

I swear I'm about convinced that when the Norincos hit the U.S. market, the big 3 bought a few examples, tore'em down for a look-see and
checked a few specs and said: "Uh-ohhhhh...Boys, we gotta put a stop to this! Get on the horn to our congressmen and tell'em that the Commie Chinese are floodin' the market with cheap assault pistols, or we'll all be flippin' burgers at Mickey Dee's."

Or maybe what they said is "We've got to figure out how we can get political prisoners to mill these parts out of unhardened steel for only $0.05/day!"

 

[WhoKnowsWho]

Not as long as the intake manifold on my 2001 Chevy truck is still plastic.

My radiator on my old '85 Honda Civic was plastic too... don't know how it worked.

So have you contacted Kimber about this yet? Monday is done and over with now...

I really am not surprised by a broken part... I have come to expect it in just about everything I use. My digital Canon camera, has been replaced twice due to malfunctions with the lens, mechanical things just break or have errors in mass production, there is no getting around it.

 

[roo_ster]

Okay, I'm afraid to ask...

Just what on my new SW1911 is MIM?

Supposedly a good portion of the parts are from name 1911 parts makers.

Oh, well.

 

[horge]

bountyhunter pretty much nailed it.
While you can certainly find (and cite) MIM performing admirably in high-stress apps in impact drills, grinders, etc-- those MIM parts are VERY beefy compared to any older, forged counterparts.

MIM has no place in a thin section part under considerable tensile and shear stress.

If a firearms manufacturer is even going to consider going with MIM, they'd better play honest and beef up the sections, unless they're afraid of how fugly it would look and how much heavier it would make the firearm

 

[Tamara]

Should Colt beef up their MIM sears?

(For that matter, should S&W beef up the plastic disconnectors on their 3rd Generation Autos?)

Let him without sin, and all...

 

[wintermute76]

I know the slide stop and ejector on S&W are MIM, we did the tools for them where I work.

We quoted Kimber for a full set of MIM tooling back around 2000 (I asked our sales manager) Kimber thought they were too expensive and took their business elsewhere. He went on to say that the quality of their other tooling isn't up to par, and they only get 2 good parts on average out of a 4 cavity tool.

MIM is fine if it's done right. If corners are cut, well....

I have a Kimber Pro Carry HD II, no problems yet.

 

[WonderNine]

I know it's not likely, but maybe Colt will drop the rest of their MIM parts as well eventually. They could even get by with charging a little bit more for new guns if they did that.

Besides the MIM parts, S&W has that terrible firing pin safety setup that Kimbers do now.

 

[horge]

Howdy!
I wasn't casting stones, Tamara, nor pitching for one brand over another.

I'm just suggesting that if something so critical as a self-defense implement has parts that are prone to breakage, the parts need to be made stronger, either by increasing the part section or switching to a better manufacturing process, regardless of which manufacturer is concerned.

If there is no history or trend towards breakage, then they must be doing it right already (by WHATEVER process), so why bother?

For brands WITH a history of breakage...
If there is severe pressure to retain the profile and appearance of an original 1911 or 1911a1, then I think said brands seeking alternatives to forged are SOL --because perhaps something as thin as the slide catch NEEDS to be forged. Heck, they could investment-cast it then stamp it into hardness. It might come out cheaper than a thicker-section MIM (which, again, may not be permissible due to market sentiment).

Or...egads.. maybe they could simply make 'em like they used to, and cut back on bureacratic fat and advertising expenses to keep costs down.

 

[roo_ster]

"Name" Parts Makers Using MIM

Just did a bit of browsing on Brownells.com.

Searched for Wilson Combat slide catches.

Came up with several, but two seem to tell the story:

**********************************

"1911 AUTO BULLET PROOFTM SLIDE STOP

Mfr: WILSON COMBAT

Completely Re-Designed For Improved Function & Durability

Fully-machined from bar stock, then heat treated and hardened for fail-proof durability. Radiused corners won't catch on holsters or clothing. Thumb pad extends slightly at a 90° angle for increased leverage and faster, more positive engagement. Maximum-diameter pin increases barrel lockup.

SPECS: Steel, blue, matte finish. Fits .45 ACP only.

965-000-010
SS Slide Stop $51.95"


**********************************

OK, this seems to be the top of the line part from Wilson & mentions "Fully-machined from bar stock, then heat treated and hardened"


**********************************

"1911 AUTO SLIDE STOP

Mfr: WILSON COMBAT

Standard Length Preferred By Combat Shooters

Exact reproduction of the standard-length, factory slide stop; the style and length most preferred by combat shooters. Made from long-wearing, hardened, heat treated steel. Precision machined pin and lip engagement surface ensures positive, last- round, slide lock open and tighter lockup with custom barrels.

SPECS: Steel, blued carbon or stainless (SS), matte finish. Fits 1911 Auto. No fitting required.

Catalog page 85


965-102-145
.45 ACP Slide Stop, SS $31.50"

************************************

The lack of any mention of "Fully-machined from bar stock, then heat treated and hardened" is kinda d@mning here. I would put $$$ on this part being MIM.

*************************************

So, if even "top" or "name" 1911 makers are using MIM, what does that say/mean?

1. Woohoo! I just bought a SW1911 with similar parts for less money than all those nincompoops who bought Wilson Combat 1911s. (Hooray for me!)
OR
2. Criminee!!! Just about nobody, including the top 1911 makers produces a decent 1911 anymore. For me to get a proper (MIM-free) 1911, I'll have to pay $2000+ to a custom maker and sell my first born child into bondage. [Sorry, son, but I just gotta have a "Fully-machined from bar stock, then heat treated and hardened" 1911. Good luck in the salt mines & don't forget to write. (Woe is me!)]
OR
3. Something else?

In the immortal words of Vinnie Barbarino, "I'm so confused!"

 

[fastbolt]

I thought I'd already posted this link around here somewhere ... but even if so, perhaps some of the folks here might enjoy reading some material regarding MIM, written by Mr. Herb Belin of S&W ... courtesy of a linked thread from the S&W Forums, where Moderator VictorLouis inserted the information ...

Just scroll down to the 4th posting in the thread ...
http://www.smith-wessonforum.com/ubb/Forum18/HTML/001513.html

Sometimes "changes" aren't necessarily a bad thing, especially if done properly ...

I've seen some broken parts in various S&W guns, but they haven't been MIM parts ... not yet, anyway. Does that mean the forged steel parts that have broken are inadequate for the chosen applications?

As far as the plastic guide rods and disconnectors? Well, our first reaaction to a plastic guide rod in an eary 908, several years ago, was "predictable" in nature ... PLASTIC?!?!?! ... and then the same for the first plastic disconnector.

Of course, when I actually ASKED someone at S&W why they'd gone to using "cheap plastic" for those parts ... the person I spoke to chuckled a bit, and then good-naturedly admitted that while most everyone has had a similar initial reaction, that extensive "torture" testing at the factory had shown that those plastic parts had actually endured sustained use better, in some ways, than the corresponding metal parts had ...

Apparently, S&W doesn't expect to be replacing an unreasonable number of these parts, and paying shipping both ways, under their Lifetime Warranty.

Of course, nobody's expecting anyone to use plastic for a slide stop or an extractor anytime soon, either ...

Maybe when they finally release the super secret porcelain G7 Bruce was talking about in that movie ...

Hey Tuner ... which shop still produces spring steel 1911 extractors, anyway? Do they offer a similar slide stop?

And the beat goes on ... drums keep pounding a rhythm to the brain ...

 

[sm]

Thoughts on bar stock, machine billet, and all that ...

Cryo'd vs not Cryo'd.

For instance IIRC the "bulletproof" is cryo'd the standard is not. Benefits or not?

Not had a problem with the bar stock and such not cryo'd...then again never had any bulletproof or cryo'd parts in any of my personal guns.

Just curious.

 

[Drjones]

Funny.

Same exact thing happened to my Inox Beretta 96, only the slide stop sheared clean off at the pin.

Same cheap, crap MIM pot metal too.

Its for the better I guess...I already have a blued 96, so I traded the stainless 96 on a new DE!!!

Anyone know if the Blued 96s have MIM??? God I hope not...

 

[dukeofurl]

My Kimber Experience or How I got a lemon

Purchased a NIB TLE II. May '03.

Took it to the range with JLB, formerly of Glocktalk. Some of you may know him. Ran fine for 49/50 rounds. One casing FAILED TO EJECT. Caught in the extractor and jammed against the breechface.

Took to match, 3 malfs. 2 failures to fire - no primer strike. I suspect series II safety following murphys law. Did the casing thing again. Paid $40 to ship back to Kimber for tuning. Could not hit broad side of a barn. Loose nut behind the trigger. May '03.

Tuned, got gun back dirty. They threw in 2 mags for my inconvenience. Got 2 mags with the gun: Total Kimber mag count: 4. June '03.

About 2 months into ownership, rust started coming out. I kept the finish with a light film of CLP to no avail. Bare metal was becoming exposed on all machined edges of the frame. Beavertail, slide release and mag release were losing bluing. Elements of rust were becoming prevalent on the slide although being kept with light CLP. Kimber paid for shipping back to them for refinishing. August/September '03.

Got the gun back around September and it looked great, refinished at no charge, all small parts with bluing problems replaced. Declared an end to the 1911 experience and proceeded to sell the Kimber at near break even.

Nobodys perfect, but they tried their best to take care of me and my gun I couldnt shoot. Thats pretty admirable in my book.

 

[1911Tuner]

Re: Ramblin'

Fuff! If what the Detonics guy said is a fact, let us hope that Detonics will
also enter the market as a supplier for 1911-spec parts.

Tamara quipped (Ya gotta love'er )

Or maybe what they said is "We've got to figure out how we can get political prisoners to mill these parts out of unhardened steel for only $0.05/day!"

You can NOT be speakin' of Norincos! I picked up a used one...
approximately 5,000 rounds..and can detect zero wear on any
small part or any portion therein. I ran a spot test here and there
with a scale, and the Rc hardness checked out at the high end of
specs on every part that I tested. I took a trip down to see a local
custom smith...small time...and he was in the middle of dovetailing a
Norinco slide for a front sight...cussin' as he went. His advice was
that if you're gonna mill a Norinco slide, it's best to start with a new end mill or dovetail cutter. The things are as tough as pig iron.

FWIW, I tried a couple of McCormick's MIM slidestops in two of my hard-use
beaters...and I take "Hard-Use" to an extreme. No breakage or failure
to lock the slides that were attributed to the part. The failures were 2-3
magazine follower related issues, and a little tweak cured the problem.

The low-end Wilson slidestops are investment cast. As Ruger has shown,
a really good investment casting can be strong and tough, and fully up to
the task at hand.

As for MIM being suited to thicker, heavier applications...looks like all the
busted grip safeties shot that theory down in a handy fashion.

Cheers!
Tuner