Mindset Behind Expense Of Carry Piece

[Blue Jays]

In the event of an emergency...one would naturally use the best tool convenient at the exact moment.

At the same time...that is why it might also make sense to keep the irreplaceable family heirloom in the safe...with the contemporary and "less precious" firearm more easily reached in the bedside nightstand.

 

[GEM]

Did we say (I think so) that the cost of defending yourself in court / lawyers fee might start at $5000 even for the supposed 'good shoot' where you are not charged? If you go to court - $50 K and up. Expert witnesses start at $1000 to $10k a day. The latter is usually what is charged to government defendants by 'experts'. Oops, that kind of dwarfs the gun cost.

I'm reminded of the popular debate in gun class where you are told when the cops arrive and you are told to drop the gun, drop it. Someone usually says - mine is a Witten Kombat Special CK Eclipse so I will tell the officer, that I will put it down slowly. The officer says - Bang, bang. If you see folks like Tom Givens, etc. seem to put the gun down and shoot while in the fake slow putting down, you will understand why.

Also, do you shoot the fancy pants gun enough to be truly proficient with it under stress? If it is a COS play gun, probably not.

We are circling around here. Carry something that works for the purpose - defending yourself with efficacy.

 

[valnar]

I was in the camp "not carrying anything special" until I turned 50. Now that my focus is going, I modified/milled my simple S&W Shield for a red dot. I now see there are a few single-stack 9mm factory options with red dot sights, so if I bought today, I wouldn't need to do that again.

 

[Elkins45]

If it saves my life but I lose it forever I will give thanks to God and consider it money well spent.

 

[milemaker13]

Just make sure its chrome plated. They shoot faster !

 

[Blue Jays]

If there are two equally capable firearms of identical caliber next to each other in the nightstand...I hope that in a dire situation I would have the presence of mind to (please) grab the common current production one rather than the beautiful and irreplaceable family heirloom next to it...is what I'm saying.

 

[FFGColorado]

lawyers fee might start at $5000 even for the supposed 'good shoot' where you are not charged?

If you are not charged, why are you going to court?

I'm reminded of the popular debate in gun class where you are told when the cops arrive and you are told to drop the gun, drop it

When the cops arrive, the whole event is probably over. If I shoot somebody in my house, when the ‘cops arrive’, minutes after the shoot, I doubt the cops would recognize me as the caller, cuz I’m in my jammies. All they will see is the gun....why MY CCWP instructor said...when the cops arrive, stand there with gun on table or floor, unloaded, with my hands in the air.

 

[DR505]

If you are not charged, why are you going to court?

You will likely be sued in civil court even if no criminal charges are filed against you.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

You will likely be sued in civil court even if no criminal charges are filed against you.

The law in Arkansas is they can't sue if there are no criminal charges.

 

[DR505]

The law in Arkansas is they can't sue if there are no criminal charges.

That is good for residents of Arkansas. More states need such common sense.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

That is good for residents of Arkansas. More states need such common sense.

In the last 10 years, Arkansas went from being a Yellow Dog Democrat state to being the most Republican state in the union.

 

[Kleanbore]

The law in Arkansas is they can't sue if there are no criminal charges.

I cannot find that anywhere, and it makes no sense at all.

There are laws in some states that protect citizens from civil liability in use of force cases. They require a defendant to request civil immunity in court., after as suit has been filed. That may or may not be granted.

The burden of persuasion in a civil case is "by a preponderance of the evidence", usually with a majority verdict if it goes to trial

In a criminal case, it is "beyond all reasonable doubt", with a unanimous verdict

The state may consider conviction unlikely, or not worth the expense, and decide to not charge. Failure to charge would not prevent a law suit.

The granting of civil immunity would keep on from going to trial

 

[JR24]

If you aren't charged criminally, your weapon would (likely?) be back in your hands, so the price of it is irrelevant in the civil court discussion, no?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Prosecutor: ‘complete safety’ in Arkansas law significant in justifiable homicide cases - News - Arkansas News Bureau - North Little Rock, AR

Under Arkansas law, “no person is civilly liable for an action or omission intended to protect himself or herself or another from a personal injury during the commission of a felony unless the action or omission constitutes a felony.”

 

[The Last Outlaw]

The law in Arkansas is they can't sue if there are no criminal charges.

We have a similar law in N.C.

 

[Kleanbore]

Prosecutor: ‘complete safety’ in Arkansas law significant in justifiable homicide cases - News - Arkansas News Bureau - North Little Rock, AR

Under Arkansas law, “no person is civilly liable for an action or omission intended to protect himself or herself or another from a personal injury during the commission of a felony unless the action or omission constitutes a felony.”

That is true in a number of states.

It does not mean that the actor cannot be sued.

That protection is not triggered by the failure of the state to file criminal charges.

By the way, should a person be killed, there is no statute of limitations for criminal charges.

 

[Rexster]

If you are not charged, why are you going to court?

Well, I would want to have good legal advice, before and during making any detailed statements to police. Not “family lawyer,” but, an accomplished criminal defense attorney. (Been there; done that.)

Depending upon the circumstances, I may want to say NOTHING to the police, which is a way to legally protect myself, but is also a quick ticket to the lock-up, to be printed, photographed, and booked, until the police sort-out what they do know. (I have seen this happen, at the scene of a “good shoot.” I was the officer selected/ordered to transport him to the lock-up.) One may need a lawyer, to file any necessary writs, while one is being silent, at the lock-up.

One may be lucky enough to be released, at the scene, without charges, pending grand jury review of the case. One WILL want to consult a lawyer, before facing a grand jury. The lawyer may not be able to enter the grand jury room, but, believe me, one will want to enter that place with the best possible legal advice already well-established inside one’s brain. In my case, a thorough knowledge of Mas Ayoob’s books probably helped more than my attorney’s advice, but one little nugget, from the attorney, just before I walked in there, was also important.

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

Carry what you like. Carry what makes you happy. Carry what works. Carry what you can use effectively.

 

[jbmillard]

You will likely be sued in civil court even if no criminal charges are filed against you.

Does anybody have any statistics for this? I'd be curious to know how many people get sued for defending themselves.

 

[Blue Jays]

The nasty civil suit from the perp's family is yet another reason it would have been a bummer to shoot a dirtbag with a customized and highly-finished pistol with "Wrong House" or "Smile, Wait for Flash" engraved on muzzle.

One will wish to be as unremarkable, plain-vanilla, reasonable, and relatable as possible...

 

[Mark_Mark]

I carry my USPSA Carry Optic gun as my EDC. I know all the issues with it, were it breaks, how it recoils, got the right grip, fast reloads.... If I get it taken away, and my boys and wife are still alive... then it served it’s purpose.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

You will likely be sued in civil court even if no criminal charges are filed against you.

Does anybody have any statistics for this? I'd be curious to know how many people get sued for defending themselves.

I don't think there are any studies on this. Nobody ever seems to be able to cite any when these discussions arrive.

I know of three people who have been involved in self defense shootings, all before castle doctrine and stand your ground laws. None were sued. By the "likely" claim, at least one should have, right?

You may be sued (law permitting). If the situation is such that the law allows for you to be sued, then you should be prepared to be sued as that is a possible consequence and one that may impact you significantly, but "likely" just seems to be one of those terms people like to throw around (me, included). It is universally vague. It isn't a percentage term although people will interpret it as such. It does not mean any sort of stipulated percentage such as 90% or 30 %, or >50%. It is a weasel word, great for casual conversation, but so vague as potentially being completely wrong and certainly misleading. I think a lot of people assume it to mean something greater than 50%, but that seems to be because of the assumption and not an actual definition. Some undoubtedly will assume it to be a much higher percentage.

I loved this definition of likely...
such as well might happen

How about...
apparently suitable

You got to love it when a vague term is defined definitions using multiples of vague terms.

 

[jbmillard]

I don't think there are any studies on this. Nobody ever seems to be able to cite any when these discussions arrive.

I know of three people who have been involved in self defense shootings, all before castle doctrine and stand your ground laws. None were sued. By the "likely" claim, at least one should have, right

<quote trimmed>

Thanks. I’ve not seen anything on this either, but it seems to be repeated quite often just as “if you ever have to defend yourself you’re gonna lose your gun, justified or not”. I talked to the local cops here a couple of times and they told me the crime lab here is pretty good about getting weapons back after a shooting — usually a few days — provided you haven’t been charged and it is not required for evidence.

 

[Elkins45]

People file civil suits for two reasons: to get justice or to get paid. A plaintiff’s attorney isn’t likely to take either kind of case unless there’s a deep pocket on at least one side of the suit. Most average schmoes like us aren’t worth pursuing because we don’t have much to begin with, and forcing an asset sale rarely brings the full worth. Plus there might be some bankruptcy protections that won’t let them force you out of your house in some states (I have no idea how this all works) I’m guessing.

In the case of a suit against a homeowner the deep pocket is the home insurance agent. IIRC Ayoob wrote about intruders making claims they were accidentally shot by the homeowner because accidents are covered by insurance but intentional acts are not.

Or this could all be totally wrong...but I would imagine it’s a hard sell convincing an attorney to file a civil suit against an average guy with a mortgage, kids with student loans, and a car payment. Unless, of course there’s publicity involved, or truly for seeking justice. I’m guessing the family of that black kid executed in the street in Georgia has a five gallon bucket full of business cards from civil rights lawyers who would happily sue those guys into oblivion even if they never recover a dime.

 

[DR505]

Good points about deep pockets and such. My concerns are colored by knowing, as a LEO, a civil suit would likely be attempted after a shooting.