Minn. man shoots cops after SWAT team kicks down wrong door

[ilbob]

if you hit the wrong house for any reason, everyone on the team, and the whole chain of command up to the chief, gets 30 days suspension w/o pay and the police department involved pays $1,000,000 each to the victims out of their normal budget.

if they used information from paid informants its 60 days, and $2,000,000.

financial penalties arent any punishment... the departments get their money from the tax payers and since the cops are kicking in the doors of law abiding tax payers, taking their money to pay for mistakes isnt a real problem for them...

I think they will notice it if they have to cut back to pay for their mistakes.

And if those involved have to take a 30 day unpaid vacation, they will remember the next time not to use fake information provided by stoolies.

 

[ilbob]

Save the self-righteous indignation for situations where the intent was actually wrongful.

And you know the intent was not wrongful in this case how? The cops have already admitted to using what they call "bad" information. That's bureaucrat speak for fake information in case you don't know.

If I celebrate New Years Eve by shooting up in the air on and a bullet lands in someone, I should have to take the consequences. Why are you so willing to let LE off the hook for something far worse?

 

[TallPine]

Who wants to formulate something that we, as a body, can actually DO?

We could start "minding our own business" and stop the War on People Using Some Drugs. But that has already been heavily discussed here on THR, and the general consensus always seems to be that drugs are "bad" and thus must be banned.

If an idea cannot gain traction here on this forum then it has little chance out in the general population.

 

[Owens]

According to the OP, it is only assumed that this was a no-knock. Could have been. Could have not been. Language barrier? Possible. Misunderstanding? possible.

Too many questions remain unanswered and likely won't be.

 

[TexasRifleman]

A little more information coming out.... still no charges anywhere.

Please note the bold type.....

http://wcco.com/local/minneapolis.police.officers.2.612893.html

Officers On Paid Leave After Raid Goes Awry
MINNEAPOLIS (AP) ―
Seven Minneapolis police officers were on paid administrative leave Monday as investigators try to determine what went wrong with a raid on a non-suspect's home that ended with two of the officers getting shot but nobody injured, authorities said.

Vang Khang grabbed his hunting gun to protect himself, his wife and six children when they heard someone burst through the back door early Sunday, Khang said Monday night. He fired three shots, hitting two members of the SWAT team, but they were unhurt thanks to their bulletproof vests and helmets. Officers returned fire, but nobody in the house was injured. Police released Khang after taking his statement.

Lt. Amelia Huffman, the head of the department's homicide unit, said the officers went to the house listed in the search warrant they were executing, but it turned out that they were acting on information from a source that was wrong. The source had provided other information that was accurate and officers had nothing to make them question its veracity, she said.

"Clearly there was something that happened that prevented this particular source from getting this address correct," she said.

Huffman declined to say much about the underlying case, but said it was generated by the department's Violent Offender Task Force, which she said typically handles drug and gang crimes.

Khang, 34, and his wife, Yee Moua, told reporters Monday night that they thought intruders had broken into their home.

Moua said she was watching television on the main floor when she heard voices and then windows breaking. She ran upstairs to tell her husband.

Khang said he grabbed the shotgun from a closet and fired three shots out his bedroom door. When his sons yelled at him that the intruders were actually police, he put down his gun and put his hands in the air.

"The whole family is badly shaken and still trying to understand what happened," Moua said. She and Khang showed reporters five broken windows and 22 bullet holes.

All six of the family's children, who are between the ages of 3 and 15, were home at the time.

The separate criminal and internal investigations are continuing and nobody was in custody Monday, she said. The administrative leaves for the seven officers are standard in cases of officer-involved shootings.

 

[Deanimator]

I think they will notice it if they have to cut back to pay for their mistakes.

The way to do that is to pass legislation which mandates that any settlements or judgements arising from such cases MUST come from the department's OPERATING BUDGET. If they had to lay off personnel and sell vehicles and other equipment to meet their obligations, the cavalier attitude which some police officials display toward the property, safety and lives of the public would disappear over night.

 

[highorder]

Realistically, unless we abandon the war on drugs, nothing probably will change. And way too many people have a financial stake in it to make that real easy.

the bureaucracy NEEDS the war on drugs; otherwise, many folks will be looking for jobs.

 

[Richmond]

MN news

http://www.startribune.com/local/12578176.html

Minneapolis police apologize for raid that led to gunfire

By DAVID CHANEN, Star Tribune

Last update: December 18, 2007 - 12:52 AM

Sunday's high-risk search by Minneapolis police of a house on the city's North Side was to be one of the last pieces in a long-term investigation focused on violent gang members.

But minutes after a SWAT team entered the house about 12:30 a.m., things went awry. The homeowner, a father of six, thinking the intruders were burglars, fired at them through a bedroom wall. He hit two officers, one in the back and one in the head, but both were uninjured because they were wearing protective armor. Police shot back, but did not hit him.

Hours later, police officials were apologizing to the homeowner, Vang Khang, admitting that they had erred based on bad information from an informant.

That informant was the alleged victim of a violent crime at a house, which is in the 1300 block of Logan Avenue N.

Police said they had no reason to believe the information was inaccurate. They had the right address on the warrant, but the house wasn't occupied by anybody they wanted.

The case will be reviewed by the Hennepin County attorney's office, but authorities said it's doubtful that Khang will be charged with any crime.

"We've apologized to the family, and the city is making every effort to repair any damages to his home as quickly as possible," said Lt. Amelia Huffman, head of the homicide unit.

Huffman's unit, as well as the internal affairs unit, also will review the case.

Gang members sought

The search warrant police were working with was part of an investigation by the department's Violent Offender Task Force, which typically goes after the most violent gang members and drug dealers. In the past two years, the investigation has dismantled at least three violent gangs, with several suspects arrested and many weapons seized.

The warrant was typical for this kind of investigation, Huffman said. It was designated high-risk and "no knock" because officers expected to find weapons, which is why a SWAT team was involved.

When police entered, the officers called out, "Police!" as they searched the home's first floor. They didn't find anybody, so went to the second floor. At a small landing at the top of the stairs, they again shouted, "Police!" Huffman said.

Shots came through the walls and doors as officers searched two bedrooms, police said. It was Khang, 34, shooting from a third bedroom.

There were children in the other bedrooms, and the officers quickly realized there was a language barrier. The older children were able to communicate to their father that police were in the house and to stop shooting, Huffman said.

All six of the family's children, who range in age from 3 to 15, were home at the time.

Khang's wife, Yee Moua, said she was watching TV on the first floor when she heard voices and windows breaking. She ran upstairs to tell her husband.

Khang said he grabbed a gun from a closet and fired three shots. When his sons yelled at him that the intruders were police, he put down his gun and put his hands in the air.

"The whole family is badly shaken and still trying to understand what happened," Moua said.

After police interviewed Khang's family, it became clear they had no connection to the case, Huffman said. But the address listed on the warrant was the one police had gotten from the informant.

"This house was part of a package of very credible information that resulted in other successful enforcement actions," she said. "This was the end of a chain of things, and there was no reason to question the credibility of the information."

All relieved no one was hurt

On Monday, officers involved in the shootout were on paid administrative leave, standard in such cases.

Meanwhile, the Khangs' back door and several windows were boarded up.

Ron Edwards, co-chairman of the Police Community Relations Council, questioned what police do when informants pass on bad information.

"It wasn't a very pleasant situation up there," he said. "I'm glad police had all that protective armor on. With so many children inside, it was lucky nobody was injured."

The Associated Press contributed to this report. David Chanen • 612-673-4465

Local news stations were covering this heavily last night, including an interview with Vang Khang through an interpreter (he is Hmong) and a walk through the home, showing angles and the like. From the damage to the drywall from the shotgun, I would guess that he was using a game load, consistent with what he said - he grabbed a hunting gun from the closet and ran to defend his family amid a lot of noise and furor.

My opinion of the press coverage was that the overall tone was "how the hell did this happen to this family?".

A quote on the Fox affiliate, attributed to an police department spokesperson (unamed) was that they were "looking into the possibility that a step was skipped in the warrant process."

 

[mekender]

financial penalties arent any punishment... the departments get their money from the tax payers and since the cops are kicking in the doors of law abiding tax payers, taking their money to pay for mistakes isnt a real problem for them...

I think they will notice it if they have to cut back to pay for their mistakes.

And if those involved have to take a 30 day unpaid vacation, they will remember the next time not to use fake information provided by stoolies.

The way to do that is to pass legislation which mandates that any settlements or judgements arising from such cases MUST come from the department's OPERATING BUDGET. If they had to lay off personnel and sell vehicles and other equipment to meet their obligations, the cavalier attitude which some police officials display toward the property, safety and lives of the public would disappear over night.

ok, first of all, a starting year officer makes on average about $28k... so you want to take some of the money in their budget?

ok what happens when there arent enough officers on the street? or they dont have enough cars to respond on a busy friday night?

less money for training... that will cost more lives...

the PD here already shares cars among officers... i wonder how much that reduces the lifespan of the cruser?

what happens when they have to choose between money for tazer batteries and money for duty weapon ammo? (i bet they choose the ammo)

what about money to buy more gloves, flex cuffs, replacement lights for the flasher bars, roadside drug and alcohol test kits, blank traffic tickets, pepper spray, first aid kits, body armor, road flares, etc etc...

cutting their money is not the solution... i agree that there should be accountability... but cutting the money to a department will hurt the community much more than it would hurt the department... most cops could make more money doing private security... dont think they dont know that... and please remember that most cops are decent, hard working people just like you an i... they dont want to have a hassle at work, nor do they look for reasons to cause trouble... most of them just want to go home at the end of their shift just like most of you at your jobs...

 

[Deanimator]

cutting their money is not the solution

It's a lot better solution than soaking the taxpayers (including the victims) of police mis or malfeasance.

When police departments feel no tangible pain for incompetence or misconduct, you see things like this: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-071205cops-htmlstory,1,5301758.htmlstory

It's very apparent that the Chicago PD is perfectly content to go its merry way, unperturbed by the mind boggling settlements and judgements against it for wrongful shootings, including homicides. No one is ever punished meaningfully, and no forceful corrective measures are ever applied to the department as a whole.

Some police departments need to be taught in no uncertain terms that actions have consequences. If a citizen gets liquored up and runs into somebody on the road or if he kicks in his neighbor's door and starts shooting because he hears screaming, only to discover that his now deceased neighbor was watching "Saw III" on HBO, nobody's going to do anything but sneer at his complaints about the size of the judgement against him, regardless of whether he can feed his family afterward.

I offered a solution. If you don't like it, let's hear yours... that doesn't simply amount to saying, "**** happens." and looking the other way. Clearly sueing some cities [and WINNING] has absolutely ZERO effect on police conduct and competence.

 

[03Shadowbob]

He probably was not using slugs as neither officer was injured after being hit in the back and the head. Probably more like birdshot or maybe buckshot.

 

[ilbob]

part of a package of very credible information

Cop speak for "a paid stoolie told us". In other words, someone who has no credibility at all. BTW, "paid" can mean money, or leniency in this context.

ok, first of all, a starting year officer makes on average about $28k... so you want to take some of the money in their budget?

ok what happens when there arent enough officers on the street? or they dont have enough cars to respond on a busy friday night?

They will learn to make do with less, as all of us have to do when our budget is cut. Maybe you start by getting rid of all the department owned cars used as personal vehicles by the chief and his cronies. Unless the punishment hurts, nothing will change.

I would be willing to bet after a few hot shots and their bosses get a month off w/o pay, they will not be so cavalier about the details the next time.

I'd be willing to bet most departments with more than a few hundred officers probably spend far more than that on PR measures. Start with them. Police departments don't need spin meisters. If they just tell the truth they are better off long run anyway.

 

[mekender]

It's a lot better solution than soaking the taxpayers (including the victims) of police mis or malfeasance.

why is this so hard to understand...

a police department is an extension of the government... the government is not capable of owning assets or finances... assets and finances belong to the people... all funds that the government uses are TAKEN from the tax payers at gunpoint... since all of their funds come from the tax payers, suing them does nothing more than force the tax payers to pay for the departments mistakes... its not much better than a socialist redistribution of wealth... basically, agents of society do something wrong, so society is forced to pay those that were wronged...

this is the same problem that happens when a school employee or campus gets found liable for an injury or rights violation... they are told to pay x amount of millions of dollars... because the school is a government body, its assets and properties belong to and are funded involuntarily by taxpayers... those dollars used to pay the settlements come from the tax payers

if you think that taxes aren't taken at gunpoint, try not paying your taxes... the guys that show up to collect your unpaid taxes do in fact carry guns...

again, financial punishments don't do anything other than hurt the community which has already been hurt by the initial action... I'm not saying that the victim shouldn't get financial compensation, they absolutely should, but said compensation is not an effective punishment for a government body...

and if you think that the police unions would let their members become personally liable for mistakes like that (weather malicious or not), then you have some serious delusions about the level of power and political influence that police unions have...

 

[lance22]

At the risk of having my account banned from THR - how many people have supervised average LEO's at IPSC / IDPA matches? If you have, you understand why they have to put so many rounds downrange. The stories I could tell ...

I do know some LEO's who are truely skilled with their firearms - far beyond where I'll ever be - but it's because they practice incessantly and not because they joined SWAT and therefore shoot 4 times a year instead of only 2 times a year.

 

[mekender]

They will learn to make do with less, as all of us have to do when our budget is cut. Maybe you start by getting rid of all the department owned cars used as personal vehicles by the chief and his cronies. Unless the punishment hurts, nothing will change.

like teachers, i WANT my local police to be paid well... well paid people are more likely to like their job and do it well... and i also WANT them to have well maintained and up to date equipment... it helps them do their job better... i don't want officer Johnson driving his 1984 dodge pickup out on patrol... he cant catch bad guys in it very well... i want my local officers to have state of the art computers, well maintained equipment that is reliable, and the best training available... you start cutting budgets, something goes away...

as for the PR departments... considering that the newspapers and news stations are very quick to fire off stories about supposed abuse.... this cop fired too many rounds... that cop used his tazer on a man that wasn't violent, only running naked through a playground at 2am... that other cop ran his cruser into a "unarmed" driver that was only trying to get away when he rammed a police car... etc etc... the media relishes the idea of vilifying our police officers much the way that they love running stories about "massacres" in iraq that dont actually happen(i can point to at least 5 of those in the last week)... of course after the reports come out, the apologies for their lies show up on page 24... so yeah, you are damn right that the PD needs a PR group... otherwise, we would all assume that the PD was totally corrupt and full of evil men that wanted nothing more than to abuse non LEO's...

again, yes there NEEDS to be accountability, but financial penalties are ineffective... how about this... raise the pay, raise the standards needed to get hired... increase training, and education... and start criminally punishing those few officers that do abuse the public...

 

[dakid2]

I know there have been many different stories about what happened, but it sounds like a no knock on bad info or a wrong house hit. Either way they are responsible and when is the last time you saw them have to pay or get docked pay. Yeah right, they will say sorry and the family will have to fight to get reimbursed for damage and the father will have to hope he is not charged. Great system. By the way, if the story I saw was correct, nice shooting cops, 30 rounds no hits and the father hits them twice. No knocks blow. I guess he should be lucky they did toss an incendiary or a flash bang and burn down the house and then found to be found not liable.

 

[ilbob]

At the risk of having my account banned from THR - how many people have supervised average LEO's at IPSC / IDPA matches? If you have, you understand why they have to put so many rounds downrange. The stories I could tell ...

I do know some LEO's who are truely skilled with their firearms - far beyond where I'll ever be - but it's because they practice incessantly and not because they joined SWAT and therefore shoot 4 times a year instead of only 2 times a year.

I don't know if that is a fair criticism. I do know our local club has some Chicago PD officers that shoot in the IPSC matches and I have heard nothing but praise for their safety and skill level. In fairness, these are guys that make the effort to go shoot more often.

If you ever read secondcitycop (a Chicago pd blog site) you will see one of the recurring complaints is the minimal firearms training. I like the blog owners response - something along the lines of if the PD training and practice ammo is inadequate, pay for it yourself.

 

[ilbob]

as for the PR departments

Instead of using the PR departments to misrepresent what goes on, just use regular officers to tell the truth. In the long run it will be far more effective in gaining the trust of the people then the lies the spin meisters put out. Teach officers to answer questions from the press in an honest and upfront manner. If the officer does not know, just say so. If there are things that truly need to be kept out of the public realm (and there are a very few), just say so, and explain why.

Maybe it will sometimes make the department look bad because they made a mistake, but people know when they are being lied to, and they never trust that source ever again. Most of us can accept an actual mistake, since we all make them now and then. Being lied to is something else.

 

[Deanimator]

again, yes there NEEDS to be accountability, but financial penalties are ineffective... how about this... raise the pay, raise the standards needed to get hired... increase training, and education... and start criminally punishing those few officers that do abuse the public...

1. Can you cite for me ANY evidence that the proximate cause of the incident in question was related to:

pay
hiring standards
training
education

2. Did you follow the link I provided showing the mother of all examples of systemic refusal to punish police misbehavior? Do you consider a 30 day suspension appropriate punishment for shooting an unarmed man in the head, then lying about it to investigators? If NOT, what would you propose to the family of Michael Pleasance as a remedy if NOT sueing the city of Chicago?

Basically what you seem to be saying is, "Sueing the city won't help, materially punishing the police department as an entity won't help, and if the police department won't punish its officers, Oh well!"

Could you POSSIBLY see where some people wouldn't accept that?

 

[mekender]

Did you follow the link I provided showing the mother of all examples of systemic refusal to punish police misbehavior? Do you consider a 30 day suspension appropriate punishment for shooting an unarmed man in the head, then lying about it to investigators? If NOT, what would you propose to the family of Michael Pleasance as a remedy if NOT sueing the city of Chicago.

yes i followed the link... no, 30 days of suspension is not enough... suing the city IS a valid compensation for the victims, and they damn sure deserve it... but it does nothing to punish the department...

as for refusal to punish police misbehavior... how about Waco and Ruby Ridge... the incompetence of the DoJ cost dozens of lives, and they flat out murdered the people at ruby ridge... and there was hardly any punishment...

Basically what you seem to be saying is, "Sueing the city won't help, materially punishing the police department as an entity won't help, and if the police department won't punish its officers, Oh well!"

nope, that is not what i said... what i said was that a financial penalty is NOT punishment... its not a punishment because the money that they use to pay the families already belongs to the citizens... they are paying for their mistakes with someone else's money...

i said more than once that there NEEDS to be accountability and criminal punishment... the department doesn't have to punish its officers, let a jury do that...

but there is a balance... if you crack down so tightly that all of the officers hesitate before acting, officers will die... a patrol officer that has to stop and think about weather he's going to get sued or go to jail if he shoots a BG will take precious seconds hesitating before taking action...

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Is it typical to do full-on SWAT raids like this with no intel on the house, who might be there, whether or not this is the right house to begin with, etc? My knowledge of these is limited to shows like dallas swat but they always seem to have a team meeting showing the house, the suspected layout, who is likely there, etc. like they've been doing surveillance on it.
Maybe there is no time or manpower to do that every time but it seems like it would stop a lot of these "oops sorry, my bad" raids and save some lives of people who did nothing more than have an address that looks like the address of a suspect.

 

[jerkface11]

The SWAT team should be disbanded and all of their gear sold off. This city doesn't seem to be able to have such a team.

E.T.A. The police should also thank Mr. Vang for not using a rifle for home defense.

 

[coylh]

It's tough to make your home defense plans around multiple intruders with body armor.

Not if you own a rifle.

 

[mekender]

Can you cite for me ANY evidence that the proximate cause of the incident in question was related to:

* pay hiring standards training education

mainly im judging from the knowledge of the officers ive known... none of em make enough... half of em i wouldn't have hired to guard my mail box, and everyone of them was under trained and under educated (most of them get their real education on the streets)... lets face it, they are doing a job that most of us wouldn't want to do for any price... how about giving them the best possible environment to do that...

i mean FFS, when you go for surgery, you make damn sure that you have the best doctors working on you and you have no problem with them making hundreds of thousands of dollars per year... but when you need someone to enforce the law, investigate crime, keep society decent and potentially put their life on the line for an innocent, we pay them barely enough to survive, we give them 4 to 6 months of training, then we hand them a badge and a gun and say "go to it"... and officers are arguably just as if not more important to society in general as doctors are...

but let either a doctor or a officer make a mistake and kill an innocent and we crucify them to the same degree...

again, yes malicious acts should be prosecuted... mistakes should be addressed...

 

[ilbob]

but there is a balance... if you crack down so tightly that all of the officers hesitate before acting, officers will die... a patrol officer that has to stop and think about weather he's going to get sued or go to jail if he shoots a BG will take precious seconds hesitating before taking action...

what we are talking about is simply verifying that the information they have is accurate before breaking down someone's door at 1 am. if they can't verify the information from reputable sources, it should not be used. of course, the judge who signed the warrant in the first place ought to be hounded out of office. their primary duty in such cases should be to hold the police feet to the fire to make sure only legitimate warrants are issued. I know if I was a judge and this kind of thing happened on a warrant I had signed based on the cops lying about the veracity of the information source, the cops who signed the warrant application would have some serious explaining to do.