Mixed Loads for Self-defense/Wilderness-defense carry?

[Double Naught Spy]

For you folks loading up snake shot in your gun as the first rounds, I have to wonder how afraid of snakes that you are over other threats that you put snake shot first. Seriously, how many of y'all have been chased down by a snake trying to kill you and capable of killing you? Snakes don't typically hunt people in the US last I checked. Most of the times I see people killing snakes is when they see/encounter a snake and then have find a way to kill the snake because they don't like snakes (for whatever reason), not because there is a life or death crisis requiring an immediate lethal force option.

Or is it that you load up for snakes out of convenience and put actual self defense on the back burner by burying actual self defense rounds down 3 or 4 places in the magazine?

Loading up for snake, first, is about as necessary for most folks as loading up rubber bullets for the first couple of rounds in your HD shotgun. How many of us do this?

Seriously, how many times have y'all had to shoot a snake RIGHT NOW is order to safe a human life or prevent serious bodily injury RIGHT NOW? From the vast majority of the accounts I read, it snakes are dispatched administratively, not because there is an actual crisis aside from the folks that just freak out because of "SNAKE!" Yes, I know a snake in the flower bed is terrifying and can feel a little threatening, particularly if it is venomous, but is it quick draw and fire from the holster because the snake is about to bite my infant I left in the garden for some inexplicable reason and I can't just reach over an pick up the child, or is it that snake needs to be administratively put down because it is too close to the house?

For those of you with snake shot loaded as your first rounds, will will definitely want to pattern your loads, especially if you are shooting a rifled barrel. The rifling will sling shot outside of the normal pattern and pose risks.

This type of incident is exceptionally rare in the US:

Pennsylvania officer shoots 15-foot snake that wrapped itself around man's neck

Officers in Pennsylvania shot and killed a snake after they say it wrapped itself around a man's neck Wednesday afternoon.

www.fox29.com

 

[bearcreek]

Say your in a National Park. Your biggest threat is humans. Then 4 legged critters.

That depends on what National Park and where you are in that park. In most National Parks, the biggest threat is indeed humans, but it's only when they're behind the wheel of a vehicle when it doesn't matter what kind of bullets you have in your gun.

 

[fxvr5]

For you folks loading up snake shot in your gun as the first rounds, I have to wonder how afraid of snakes that you are over other threats that you put snake shot first. Seriously, how many of y'all have been chased down by a snake trying to kill you and capable of killing you?

Seriously, how many times have y'all had to shoot a snake RIGHT NOW is order to safe a human life or prevent serious bodily injury RIGHT NOW?

You're making yourself look foolish. Don't poo poo this so quickly. I've encountered snakes in the wild three times in the past. All could have bitten me without knowing it until after bitten. Two were rattlers and one that I didn't see until it was crawling right between my legs was unknown - I got the hell out of there fast. I think snake shot is a great idea.

 

[bearcreek]

You're making yourself look foolish. Don't poo poo this so quickly. I've encountered snakes in the wild three times in the past. All could have bitten me without knowing it until after bitten.

In other words, in every one of your venomous snake encounters , snake shot would have been totally useless.

 

[fxvr5]

In other words, in every one of your venomous snake encounters , snake shot would have been totally useless.

You missed the point, didn't you? What's with the people on this forum? The point is that people do have snake encounters where snake shot can be useful and potentially life saving. If you can't understand that, then there's no help for you.

 

[Boattale]

You missed the point, didn't you? What's with the people on this forum? The point is that people do have snake encounters where snake shot can be useful and potentially life saving. If you can't understand that, then there's no help for you.

I'm having trouble visualizing an emergency snake shooting.

 

[fxvr5]

People's inability to understand things is not my problem. No one is forcing you to carry snake shot. Do whatever you want.

 

[bearcreek]

You missed the point, didn't you? What's with the people on this forum? The point is that people do have snake encounters where snake shot can be useful and potentially life saving. If you can't understand that, then there's no help for you.

No sir. I did not miss the point. I was countering the point. My point was that almost all snake bites that don't happen because of human stupidity happen because the snake was so close that snake shot wouldn't have made a difference anyway. If a snake is far enough away for snake shot to be useful, it's almost always far enough away that you don't need the snake shot.

 

[mljdeckard]

Nah. This is overthinking and frankly, assuming a lot. So, you mix the load, based on a perceived level of threat. But, what if the small threat isn't the thing that shows up first? Now do you wish you had a different sequence loaded? I am thinking the idea to load for the most dangerous threat in the area makes the most sense. (Which also makes it a really bad idea to commit petty crimes in an area where people are watching out for bears.)

I bought my dad a Ruger Single-Six because he wanted to carry snake shot while fly fishing in mountain streams. He later thought about carrying defensively, (as far as I know, he never did, his gun philosophy was always focused on hunting,) and asked about mixing snake shot and .22 mag hollow-points. I told him it's a free country, but it would really suck if you needed one and the other was lined up. He bought a basic 1911, but died shortly after.

 

[doubleh]

I have always thought of dual loading as kind of silly as you don't get to choose what threat is going to confront you. Load to deal with the worst and go about your business. I grew up in rattlesnake county and have no idea of how many I shot with a 22 when I was young and no idea of the total number of encounters but quite a few. I have never had one attempt chase to me down. I have ran across a few water moccasins while fishing and all but one swam away. One was on top of a bait box and he made it plain that he was staying where he was. Fine with me as it wasn't my bait box. Only once have I had a rattler try to bite me and it was my own fault. He was only about 14 inches long and I had stepped on him when entering a freeze house to get a meter reading. Due to a long ago crude oil spill this was a dark place. After getting my reading my eyes had adjusted to the gloom enough to see I was standing on him and he was doing his best to bite me. His size and my Redwing work boots prevented it happening.

I traveled a lot of paved county and state roads while employed that saw little use and early in the morning it was common to find rattlesnakes and bullsnakes laying on the roads warming up. I would stop, get the shovel that I always carried on my welding truck, and urge them to move off to a safe place. The rattlers went with little fuss while most of the bullsnakes usually put up some resistance hissing and striking at my shovel before giving up and leaving for the bushes. It was also common to find each squashed flat because someone just had to run over them when it was completely unnecessary.

 

[Varminterror]

It makes more sense to me to carry the gun and round for the most dangerous threat in an area.

Do this.

There's no logic in loading anything else in whatever silly order folks talk about. I've heard this idea from a lot of folks for over 30 years, and have thought it to be illogical since the very beginning... Whether folks loaded snake shot first ahead of regular bullets, or hollow points in front of hard cast, or whatever, the whole thing just doesn't make sense. It's silly enough that Hollywood even uses the idea in movies - xXx and Hellboy are examples of movies in which the main characters use special loads in order in their cylinder to deal with different threats... Just silly stuff, with no logical founding - we have to fully neglect the reality that we're highly likely to MISS during the heat of the moment, so counting on any particular round in the line up to do a particular job just doesn't make sense.

Especially, I'm critical of the following ideas:

1) "I carry 2 snake shot ahead of hard cast in bear country so I have a non-lethal option to "swat" a bear too close, but have hard hitters behind it if that doesn't work." Ok, so you're going to shoot a bear you don't find to be an immediate threat, and you're going to count on getting off 3+ rounds before dealing real damage. Obviously not terribly good idea on a surprise charge. This is beyond the reality that shooting a bear with snake shot could injure the bear, and possibly in some way which could force it into desperation where it becomes reliant upon human processes for procuring food.

2) "I carry hollow points in front of hard cast because people are a more likely threat than bears." Hard cast works on people too, but again, hollow points aren't the best choice for a surprise charge from a big bear, and needing to rip 3 shots off to get to something more likely to be effective (within their own logic), just doesn't make sense.

Load for the highest potential threat, and ONLY for the highest potential threat.

 

[Pat Riot]

About snake shot: If I've got time to shoot the snake, I've also got time to walk away.

Agreed.

The only snakes I used to get real excited about were Water Moccasins in the Carolinas when they would try to get in my bass boat.
Excitement, Thrills & Chills!
My trolling motor could outrun them.

 

[Pat Riot]

Seriously, how many of y'all have been chased down by a snake trying to kill you and capable of killing you?

I have. Water Moccasins and Mojave Green rattlesnakes. Both very aggressive and they will come to you, not slither away. BUT, I don’t load handguns for snakes. On both species of those snakes a 12 guage is the right tool, IMO.

 

[d2wing]

If I were to be charged by a bear or ambushed by someone, I would hate to have to shoot off 2 or 3 rounds to get to a lethal round. Things happen real fast in an emergency.

 

[Meeks36]

Why use snake shot when i walking stick would be a lot better for a snake? If it is poisonous then a few hits will kill it. IMHO you shouldn’t kill snakes that are in the woods. It’s their house not yours. Unless it is danger close to your house and you have kids, dogs, wife, that could potentially be bite. Also if the round is effective against a grizzly it’ll work fine on a puny human. Shot placement is key.

 

[Boattale]

Why use snake shot when i walking stick would be a lot better for a snake? If it is poisonous then a few hits will kill it. IMHO you shouldn’t kill snakes that are in the woods. It’s their house not yours. Unless it is danger close to your house and you have kids, dogs, wife, that could potentially be bite. Also if the round is effective against a grizzly it’ll work fine on a puny human. Shot placement is key.

I originally cut this stick for the fork. Useful for snakes and a lot of other things. It's been around me for 30+ years now.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

My opinion (which will get you a cup of coffee at McDonalds if you pair it with some money):

Pick a cartridge and stick with it.

If you're saying that X cartridge is good for defense against bad guys and Y cartridge is good for 4 legged critters, and insist on loading both, then you've a gun suboptimally loaded for either.

Any round that's good enough defense against 4 legged critters is also sufficient defense against 2 legged critters.

If you're worried about dangerous 4 legged critters, then carry a firearm that's strictly suitable for that...like a suitable shotgun or rifle.

Handguns are, regardless of caliber, the underpowered choice of firearms because "physics". Their advantage is easier portability and concealability, which somewhat offsets their lower power because the benefits means it's easier to have one on you most times.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

If I were to be charged by a bear or ambushed by someone, I would hate to have to shoot off 2 or 3 rounds to get to a lethal round. Things happen real fast in an emergency.

But apparently not as fast as a SNAKE EMERGENCY. That is why you prioritize your snake loads over your bear and human defense loads.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I have. Water Moccasins and Mojave Green rattlesnakes. Both very aggressive and they will come to you, not slither away. BUT, I don’t load handguns for snakes. On both species of those snakes a 12 guage is the right tool, IMO.

Talk about FAST on land. Water moccasins can go upwards of 7 miles hour for short stretches, just about normal jogging speed. Mojave Greens are good for about 5 mph.

Now if you want real speed, look at the sidewinder rattlesnake (~18 mph on land), but isn't known for chasing down people.

 

[Boattale]

Pick a cartridge and stick with it.

Oh come on. How can that ever work?

 

[.308 Norma]

In most National Parks, the biggest threat is indeed humans, but it's only when they're behind the wheel of a vehicle when it doesn't matter what kind of bullets you have in your gun.

Yep, and in some national parks, Yellowstone for instance, the 4-legged critters often make humans "behind the wheel" even more threatening. "Bear Jams and "Bison Jams" on the roads in Yellowstone are very common. AND dangerous because there's often whole families (kids as well as parents) running back and forth across the road looking for "photo-ops," while gawkers behind the wheels of motor vehicles are still driving by.
Luckily, it usually doesn't take very long for the Park Rangers to show up to direct traffic when there's a "Bear Jam" or a "Bison Jam" in Yellowstone.

 

[Shanvanvocht]

Recall discussions on pattern loading a revolver for SD. A couple of light load to get on target and show them you mean business, then heavy loads if they inists on being stubborn.

I've said it before, and I will keep on saying it: The ONLY thing that justifies shooting at another human being is an overwhelming necessity to cause him to IMMEDIATELY cease what he is doing; this need must be SO GREAT that it does not matter, either LEGALLY or MORALLY, if he dies, as a result of being stopped. There is no "show them you mean business", no "warning shot"; if deadly force is not justified, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for drawing your weapon, much less discharging it.

 

[Pat Riot]

Talk about FAST on land. Water moccasins can go upwards of 7 miles hour for short stretches, just about normal jogging speed. Mojave Greens are good for about 5 mph.

That doesn’t sound very fast…until they’re coming at you.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Snakes...

The BEST caliber for snakes, hands down, is a stick.

Period.

Be alert, wear appropriate PPE, and carry a walking stick.

Snakes aren't chasers.

 

[herrwalther]

About snake shot: If I've got time to shoot the snake, I've also got time to walk away.

Now any venomous snake around my place is in trouble. But out and about where I'm not likely to ever see that snake again? I'm chill then.

The only reason I even buy snakeshot. I would never carry it on a trail. Miles away from help, I am loaded with ammo to deal with the most devastating threats: boar, people, bear etc.