MOA or Mils?

MOA or Mils

  • I prefer matching MOA

    Votes: 17 32.1%

  • I prefer matching Mils

    Votes: 30 56.6%

  • I prefer MOA on my turrets, Mils in my reticle

    Votes: 6 11.3%

  • I prefer Mils on my turrets, MOA in my reticle

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    53
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kis2,
taliv and Zak have said it all but let me throw in my $0.02. Only two of my 12 optics have matching units for the reticle and adjustments. Admittedly, the Aimpoint M4s and Zeiss Conquest are "set them and leave them" types, but if I knew then what I know now, I would have at the very least only purchased optics with matching units. Even on static range formats such as F-Class, matching units is beneficial, not essential, but certainly more convenient. As soon as Leupold offers the milrad adjustment upgrade, my F-Class scope will be heading back to the factory. As for FFP and SFP, there's no question that I'd prefer FFP for all of my optics. I have one Leupold and two Premier Reticles optics that are FFP and they offer a simplicity that is also beneficial. If you use holdovers as many of us do, not having to correct for magnification is a HUGE benefit. How many people have made the error of holding left, right, over or under only to realize that their scope wasn't on the maximum magnification.

Simple version ... if you can afford it, mil/mil or moa/moa and FFP is the way to go.
 
One more point, moa/moa for an optic used for something like F-Class would be just fine, and in fact, superior to mil/mil due to the finer adjustment. moa/moa for an optic intended for any scenario where you're using the optic to range the target would be a bad choice if mil/mil is available.

h=d*theta is all you need to easily calculate range with a mil/mil optic. If you know the approximate height of the target (h) and then measure the angle from the bottom of the target to the top of the target (theta in radians) using the reticle, you can calculate the range (d). Obviously, if h and d have the same units (preferably yards or meters) the calculation is a lot easier.

e.g. Man-sized steel target (estimate 2 yards tall), measures 1.50 milrad so d = h/theta. d = 2/0.0015 = 1,333 yards
 
Mils.

Other than finer adjustments, MOA has no practical advantage what so ever.

It's merely a different in unit. So, what makes one unit better over the other? Mil used with metric measurements provide simplest calculation. MOA is more difficult to calculate no matter what unit is used in connection with.
 
1858- thanks for your input sir. there's been a lot of good discussion between smart and experienced people in this thread, good deal. I'm going to take a hard look at my needs and re-evaluate.
 
So....kis2, you looking at a new toy? Man, whether you're into a FFP reticle or not, at least take a look at the Super Sniper 5-20X. They're boasting mil/mil reticle/adjustments, FFP reticle, HD glass, etc. For the $1K that you can get it for right now, I really don't know that you can get better. Of course, I'm just basing this on the SS reputation and what I've read. I haven't had one in my hands yet. From the looks of them, they look to be some pretty tough equipment.

In any case, it just looks like a good deal to me, considering that a SFP Vortex PST goes for $750, a FFP PST goes for $900 and a Sightron SIII goes for about $900. It could very well be the ultimate bang for the buck for the time being. The upside is that if you get it and don't like it, you won't have any trouble moving it.

As I mentioned before, I have a new build in mind and I'm seriously considering the SS 20X. It would be really nice to get a very nice scope without having to spend $1500 to $1800 for it.
 
Just contemplating more than anything TonyAngel. I'm sure my rifle is coming back at a whole new level of capability and part of me feels like maybe the bushnell 6500 on top won't be up for the challenge. I'll throw SWFA into consideration, but that sale price will be done by the time I'd be looking to buy (if decided to buy), so that changes things a bit.

But I'm not sure about my 6500. Downsides: SFP, moa/mil. Upsides: it's been good to me thus far. optical quality is good enough for 1k yard practical shooting. tracks well. and it's paid for :)

I would plan on selling it to offset the cost of the next one. But we'll see. I'll put it through the ringer when it gets back and (word of the day) reevaluate. if thats a word.
 
But you've got that big paycheck coming in soon, right?

I'm seriously considering scraping the $1k together and getting the SS myself.
 
I agree that you need to shoot your rig first. You have enough experience to recognize any deficiencies in your rig. It's really hard shopping for a scope. Of course, I haven't seen or used it all, but it really seems that the Nightforce is sort of the threshold to upper end scopes. There are some good bang for the buck scopes that you can find for up to around the $600 mark, but then there's a void between that mark and about the $1500 mark.

There are the Vortex PSTs that many rave about, but I just can't seem to grow to love mine. Mine is sitting on top of a .22 right now and I don't know how long it's going to be there. The newer Sightron SIII look really nice, but for the price, the SS 5-20X just screams at you. It's such a vicious circle, or should I say a winding staircase that goes up in price.

In any case, when you're ready to buy, let me know. I might have a Nightforce or maybe the SS laying around that I'm not doing anything with at the time.

Oh, check out the offerings from IOR Valdada. I've never pulled the trigger on one because of their past (very past) track record, but guys are reporting good luck with them. From what I've seen, they are reasonably priced. I can't offer any more comment than that.

Of course, you could just skip all of the kid stuff, take out a small mortgage and get yourself a S&B and rest assured that you'll never have to worry about upgrading again. I know that my time for doing something like that is approaching.

After the back and forth with taliv, I have to check them out again. I know that my previous research lead me to the Nightforce line, but based on his statement that his reticle only covers 1.3" of a 5" target at 1000 yards, I think I'll have to take a second look.
 
TonyAngel said:
but based on his statement that his reticle only covers 1.3" of a 5" target at 1000 yards, I think I'll have to take a second look.
Click to expand...

Both of my Premier Reticles scopes have the Gen 2 XR reticle that taliv loves so much. Anyway, if you refer to the figure below, you can see that the width of the reticle denoted by the letter "K" is 0.004 milrad which means that it will cover 1.44" of the target at 1,000 yards.

gen2_xr.jpg
 
all of my comments should be taken in the context of daydreaming about nice scopes

if you are on a budget and already have a bushnell 6500, my strong recommendation would be to spend what money you have on

1. ammo
2. match entry fees
3. gas and lodging

go have fun and learn something. don't sweat the equipment


edit: btw, tony, i think the complaint that people often have about FFP is not that the reticle obscures too much at high magnification, but that it disappears at low magnification. that is probably a legit beef on mil-dots, but hash patterns like the one below on my USO shrink and the hashes sort of blur together and make it look like a fat crosshair at 3x, so it's really just about perfect. I don't have trouble losing the P4F either but I wonder how i would do with a christmas tree like the gen 2xr. (it definitely has some features i like though)

get_image.php
 
taliv, you guys are talking about very upper end scopes. When you restrict your shopping to scopes in the price range of the NF or even lower, the choices among FFP scopes kind of dwindles. FFP or not, I still feel that the NF is the best bang for the buck in its price range. Now, if I were willing to spend roughly twice as much, then a good FFP scope is within reach. I guess I'm not articulating what I'm trying to say very well. I suppose a simple way of putting it would be to say that I feel that a cheaper scope's implementation of a FFP reticle leaves something to be desired.

I guess that we've been discussing/arguing apples and oranges here.
 
i dunno, $1000 for the SWFA SS FFP HD has great reviews so far and most of the features you'd find in a scope 3x its price. nobody's complained about the reticle or glass that i've seen. about the only extras i'd like to add to it would be on the knobs (and maybe a larger tube)

i'm not really knocking NF, just saying they're not a good deal until the SWFA coupon expires in a week or so :)
 
Well, if that coupon expires in a week or so, I might be missing that boat. I did want to try one of those out.

taliv, if you don't mind, I might be hitting you with some PMs about the S&B, in the near future. As I mentioned, I have a new build in mind. By the time that's finished, I'm hoping to have funds to put glass on top of it and will likely have missed the window for the SS. Since this new build is going to be a shorty model, I'm thinking that I might just throw the NF on top of it and getting the 5-25X56 S&B for my long range rig.
 
sure i don't mind, but i just have one. zak has a collection of them.

if you're anywhere near TN, you should come shoot it a while before you drop 3k on it
 
Life is kind of funny how things change. My buddy 25 years ago could hit centermass at 800 using an old issue rifle and a old bitten up leatherwood. and do this all day long. The math is still the same besides all the bells and whistles.
We didn't have thermal imaging and night vision. those are cool though.
I guess many cases it depends what works for you and for your specific purpose. In any case there is nothing better than shooting and almost see the hits in your head before they happen.
Positive visualization I think they call it.
Amazing scopes we have today that is for sure.
 
I can't contribute much to this debate. I'm still using "old technology".


I'm still using a fixed 12 power Leupold, with the early "Marine oval" Mil-Dot reticle and a MOA elevation turrent. The windage knob is still a plain dial. Leupold must have stopped producing this particular model 15 years ago.


I'd be all over that Super Sniper 5-20 as a good piece of glass on a budget.


I'd have to re-learn how I think, though. I still think of everything in minutes. I don't do much competing. Most of my long-range shooting is informal rangetime done with friends at the formal long ranges.


I've done a lot of ground hog hunting, but even at the big farms I shot at I rarely had shots past 600 yards. I got real used to a laser range finder. It was just too damn hard trying to accurately guess how big the ground hog was, and then measure the part of the ground hog I could see with a reticle.


My shooting is a lot more casual. I don't care about my score, or ranking in a competitive event. And I'm not shooting something that might shoot back at me, or people I care about. If I did, my needs and selection would be totally different.


I'd recommend you figure out what you're going to be doing with this rifle and glass. Varmint hunting? Matches; and specifically what kind of matches? Some of the competitions Zak and Tom do are a lot different than an F-class match. Go to those matches, or those events, and make some friends. I wouldn't spend 4 figures on a piece of equipment based just on someone else's say so. Especially if I'm not shooting the same sort of events or the same type of activities they had in mind when they recommend something to me.
 
I will add this to the debate . . . What Tom said here -

taliv said:
if you are on a budget and already have a bushnell 6500, my strong recommendation would be to spend what money you have on

1. ammo
2. match entry fees
3. gas and lodging

go have fun and learn something. don't sweat the equipment
Click to expand...

Your skill matters the most.

Not expensive equipment. Not high-end glass. Not high-end rifles and chasing all that other non-sense.

Shooting matters.


Shoot what you have and learn it. Go shoot with other good shooters and learn from them. Have fun with the activity with what you have now. The most expensive equipment in the hands of someone who doesn't have the skill won't do anything for him.

But someone who has the skills, and has spent enough time shooting to learn how to read wind, can take a simple hunting rifle and spank major butt with it.
 
The only thing I would add is that s shooting/training is investment, and equipment that gets in the way of learning can make the whole process more expensive in the long run.
 
Well yes, that's true Zak. It can also make it into something unenjoyable. Few of us will spend free time doing things we don't enjoy.
 
I agree with all of those statements BullfrogKen and Zak. I'm not a bad shot and I spend a lot of time out in the field. the purpose of my rifle is primarily competitions like Zak's, with distant secondary of f-class. Keep in mind though I'm not a professional shooter (though that would be awesome!).

so I guess the question for my situation becomes: does my current scope hinder my training investment enough that before going too much further I should trade up? I know consistency = accuracy, so it'd be nice to pick a scope and stick with it early on.

Follow on question of: would spending an additional $2k in optics (given my current scope) be a better investment, than say, a suppressor? I'm sure optics is the answer I will get in return, but it's so tempting...

Ammo and training (and lodging) are all accounted for in the budget. I'm going to start attending a few matches like Zak's a year, f-class in between.

thanks all for the help!
 
I'm not a bad shot and I spend a lot of time out in the field.
Click to expand...

Oh, listen to Mr. Modest.

Bud, from what I'm hearing, you made a bit of an investment in that stick of yours. You may as well top it off. Besides, a quality scope is more than just about glass quality. The scopes that you are considering are built tough and will hold zero and track accurately. More importantly, they will hold zero and track accurately after they've taken a slide down a ravine.

Besides, having a mil/mil or moa/moa setup is the only way to go for quick dialing.

Hey, you work hard. Treat yourself.

As for ammo, have you checked out rmrbullets.com? He's selling pulled 175gr SMKs for $170 per 1000. I just ordered 250 of them just to check them out. I think it was $55 shipped.
 
"Oh, listen to Mr. Modest."

hahaha, I have to be modest around THR! there is some very high company!

I should be able to get exactly the scope I would want from USO for about $2500. Would need to pick a reticle still, so I'll be watching taliv's thread. Sell the bushnell and I'd be down to a $2k upgrade. I'll take another look at the vortex line between now and then as well. We'll see how things look in August!

A new gunshop just opened around here, and me and the owner have an understanding :) He keeps 178gr amaxs at a good price, I keep coming back to buy them. I think I'm up to like 500 at this point, so the stockpile is slowly growing. I'm hoping to be able to push those at nearly 2700fps when the rifle comes back.
 
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