Mob Scenario Dilemma

[BBroadside]

Here is a scenario I came up with the other day just to stump myself.

I'm carrying concealed, with a permit and all, so it's legal for whatever state I'm in. For whatever reason (flat tire, misunderstood directions, etc.), I'm in the wrong place when a riot breaks out. People are doing damage with whatever they can use as a weapon. Windows are smashed, cars on fire, etc. I'm fairly certain innocent people have been injured, but I haven't seen any such thing. It is 1 PM, a clear day.

I head in the opposite direction of a mob, and wind up getting trapped by the mob with no escape. It could be a situation where, what I thought was a walkway to safety turned out to be a blind alley. Or it could be that a barricade, flaming bus, or whatever blocks my only escape route.

I turn around and eye the mob. They are shouting slogans emphasizing their desire to kill people of my ethnicity. Some of them have homemade clubs and torches but I can see no guns or knives. They are moving toward me. It looks like there are between 12 and 20 of them. As of yet I am uninjured and no one has thrown anything at me.

There are no uniforms in sight.

1. What in the world should I do?

2. Does it matter whether or not my ammo capacity exceeds the mob's numbers?

 

[BBroadside]

Reasons this is hard to work through:

My first move would be to tell them to leave in a loud, steady voice. Maybe hold up a hand to signal STOP. Odds of my voice sounding unruffled in this scenario are about zero, but I guess I'd give it a try. Assume that they keep coming....

Some say you absolutely NEVER draw to threaten someone. This is a tough one because my instinct tells me I should definitely present my weapon, not draw a bead on someone or even take a two-handed shooting stance, but hold up my weak (left hand) in the familiar STOP position palm-forward, and demand that the mob leave.

No, I wouldn't look as awesome as Gene Hackman, but that picture is sort of what I'm thinking of (can't tell if his finger is on the trigger but mine wouldn't be).

I wouldn't take a shooting stance unless someone cocked his arm to throw something, or charged me. And I wouldn't put my finger on the trigger until I had made the decision to shoot someone.

If this is totally wrong, let me know. I am quite a novice and assume I will get some of these things taught to me in personal defense training. (Because I'm broke, that is several months away.)

 

[Sky]

Think calling 911 as you were on the move to your blind canyon trapped like a rat location would have been the first thing to do. After that good luck on whatever course of action is left open to you.

 

[Seanpcola]

Gene Hackman must be left handed.

 

[jeepguy]

If i could blend into the crowd & pretend to be with them at least temporarily i would do that. For example smash My own window of my car & act like it is somebody else's & then get away safely when i can. If not i would try to eliminate one avenue of attack, so i could at least keep them all in front of me. I would be prepared to draw at a moments notice while praying they leave me alone & move on to a more lucrative target. If they attack well thats when i would impliment what i should have decided earlier, on weather to use deadly force or not. I would if it is to defend my or my family's life, but i would try to get away if i could, even if i had to drive on a flat tire. a new rim & tire isn't that much money. I think use of deadly force should always be our last option but an option non the less, when in unavoidable grave danger. At least this is what i would do, their are probably a lot of other options just as good or better.

 

[Mr_Polite]

Personally, I'd fall to the ground and pretend I has a heart attack.

 

[Nicky Santoro]

What in the world should I do?

Shoot one and ask for a volunteer to be #2. At that point all you will see are backsides and elbows.

 

[ultradoc]

If the care is drivable drive away. If not I like N.S's scenareo.

 

[fallout mike]

I don't think a mob on a rampage of destruction and killing is going to care if someone holds up their hand and says stop, or will they care if u fall down and fake a heart attack. And if they are killing people of your race how exactly would u blend in with them? Nicky santoro has had the best idea so far.

 

[Sky]

Funny about one thing and having a weapon on your person. For me I am a big pansy now. If confronted I think I would just say, "you win" and walk away, if I can. If a mob I do everything to get away and avoid.

In my younger days I might have made a valiant stand in my best Spartan last stand of the 300 (only by myself). The longer one carries ( for me at least ) The more it sinks in that the only time the weapon is drawn and used is when the consequences of not drawing out weigh everything else considered; and for me there are a lot of considerations!

 

[crossrhodes]

Move to NH

Move to NH and you'll be covered under the new law.

 

[smince]

Disparity of Force: 12+ vs 1 with no exit puts me in fear of my life.

Similar to Nicky, shoot one in the face and see how many continue to advance.

Now, how does anyone's answer vary if it is a group of teenagers issuing the same threats?

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by smince: Similar to Nicky, shoot one in the face and see how many continue to advance.

If you have the time to aim accurately at, and successfully hit, a particular part of the person's anatomy, or if the person's advance was sufficiently slow to enable you to do so, you will have created at least come evidence to support a contention that you had not yet been in imminent danger of serious harm.

One of the problems that an actor would face in such a situation is that there will be far more witnesses contradicting his account of the incident. Adding to that would not be helpful.

 

[BBroadside]

Here is a photograph depicting the situation I am imagining in this scenario:

Imagine this mob has you back against, say, a right angle formed by a brick wall and a fiercely burning bus.

I personally could not blend into this mob. They are not sprinting towards the cameraman (my Hackmanish alter-ego, above), nor is there a thick crowd of women & children mingling with them. Most of them, however, are advancing, and some of them are clearly prepared for anti-riot activities (in this case, lachrymatories or some type of tear gas).

I am not an expert on riots or mob violence, but it seems reasonably common that a mob will advance at the speed of a crowd or a parade rather than at a dead run. Taking time to chant, throw bottles, and locate victims would serve to slow them down.

If a crowd included teenagers I wouldn't purposely target anyone whose height or face implied that he was much below 16. E.g. I wouldn't draw a bead on the kid in the white in the foreground, near left. I would draw a bead on the guy at extreme right in the orange, with his arm cocked. If I were sure (doubtful) that he were throwing something harmless, like a handful of dirt, then I wouldn't aim at him.

In any event, I think mobs are a little saner than they are commonly believed. If they were so crazed that they couldn't assess a person's self-defense ability, then those Korean shopkeepers who defended their premises in LA during the LA Riots would have been assaulted. In the event, I gather that most mobs would pick their way around Korean shops (because of the grim-faced Asian holding a shotgun) and smash the windows of big unoccupied chain stores. (This is from memory so take it with a grain of salt.)

 

[Cluster Bomb]

just have 2x extended mags, clean house no witnesses...lol

im a prity good shot when i do my challenge shooting of running and such exercises while coming to several targets between each challenge.

but kidding aside.....while there are probably verry small chance of this happening atleast in my area. i would imagine the news copters might be viewing this. as there is no place to retreet to as mentioned shooting one in a close proximity but not far that they would just taunt you and badger you from a distance would be prudnt...i would not shoot to kill...i would shoot one in the leg..maybe two as that would make a bigger point...and that in my defense i did not shoot to kill or have intent to kill just defense in my cornered situation. now if they come at you harder, blast away.....dont be afraid to use the gun as a brick to the head (one of the reasons why i like lrg heavy guns)...this will further add to your defense if they keep comming.

[edit]
well the mob pictured looks to be destructive in property nature, and one that wants to make a point, rather than hurt people as i see no bats or Molotovs or other things that ie a weapon. the mob pictured would sudjest you wer able to move "freely" suffering minor injory if any.

my advice is at a frantic rioting mob that has intent to harm in a closed off area such as a dead end ally...where there is no fence to climb or no scaffolding to climb.

 

[BBroadside]

well the mob pictured looks to be destructive in property nature, and one that wants to make a point, rather than hurt people as i see no bats or Molotovs or other things that ie a weapon. the mob pictured would sudjest you wer able to move "freely" suffering minor injory if any.

I was trying to combine that image w/ reports of mobs shouting "kill all the [specific race]!!" but not with a previous direct assault on BBroadside/Hackman.

 

[smince]

If you have the time to aim accurately at, and successfully hit, a particular part of the person's anatomy, or if the person's advance was sufficiently slow to enable you to do so, you will have created at least come evidence to support a contention that you had not yet been in imminent danger of serious harm.

One of the problems that an actor would face in such a situation is that there will be far more witnesses contradicting his account of the incident. Adding to that would not be helpful.

Whatever. I'm more interested in making it out alive. I'll worry about the rest IF it comes up after the mob turns tail and runs.

No wonder I spend less and less time on this site...

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Some of them have homemade clubs and torches but I can see no guns or knives.

They don't have to have guns. Clubs and torches are deadly weapons by themselves and absolutely warrant shooting. Even if they are unarmed, you could be overwhelmed by sheer numbers and beaten, if not to death, to the point of permanently crippling injuries.

What in the world should I do?

There is nothing wrong with beating feet in the opposite direction, but if you have nowhere to run, it is time for the gun. If you have time and some distance between them, you can try to warn them off. If they continue to advance, it is "weapons free."

Does it matter whether or not my ammo capacity exceeds the mob's numbers?

I would say probably not. Most mobs have one or more clear leaders. Shoot him (or them) and the followers will most likely break and run.

 

[GRIZ22]

If i could blend into the crowd & pretend to be with them at least temporarily i would do that. For example smash My own window of my car & act like it is somebody else's & then get away safely when i can.

How is this going to work if you are pyrple and all the people in the mob are green?

Shoot one and ask for a volunteer to be #2. At that point all you will see are backsides and elbows

Nicky has something there depending on how clsoe they are . If there are 15-20 armed with clubs, pipes, etc but no guns there already is a disparity of force issue. People riot and loot because its fun. If you shoot one, guess what? its not fun anymore. If they have no firearms I don't think you'll have to ask for volunteer #2.

Quote:

Does it matter whether or not my ammo capacity exceeds the mob's numbers?

I would say probably not. Most mobs have one or more clear leaders. Shoot him (or them) and the followers will most likely break and run.

That's if you can ID the leader.

My solution? Someone has said once if you only carry a hammer you see every solution as a nail. You have a weapon that has tons of foot pounds of energy and tremendous stopping power. That is your car. Don't leave your car it gives you the advantage of speed and some protection. If its a blind alley you can reverse out of it. If it's barricaded I can't remember ever seeing any street totally blocked outside of pictures of Paris when the allies were near and the Resistance rose up to fight the Germans. Drive over the side walk or whatever you have to do to get out of there. If the mob blocks your way run them down. If you are in a position you are authorized to use deadly force you can use a gun, ax, or your car as a weapon. If you hit any of them they made the choice to not get out of your way.

Remember don't leave your car as long as you can drive it somewhere some how. To do so is...well...kind of stupid.

 

[Owen Sparks]

You must treat any attempted assault as potentially deadly. Once you are dead it is too late to wish that you had defended yourself. Somewhere around 20% of all murders are committed with bare hands.

 

[jeepguy]

guys i said, IF I COULD now i know that might not be possible BUT that is what the IF is for. we should not be here to fight each other over something like the word IF.

 

[Kleanbore]

It would appear on the surface that such a scenario would not really differ conceptually from any other street incident involving a threat against one person by (1+n) persons in a crowded setting.

Am I missing something?

 

[CWL]

"clubs and torches" The only time I've seen a mob with those was in a Frankenstein movie.

The situation described by the OP isn't realistic, nor would his proposed response. Why can't anyone else have guns on them? How do you know rioters won't be armed?

Personal responsibility to NOT be around when a riot breaks out would be the first step. We discuss a lot about situational awareness, this is one of those times when your instincts and eyes tell you leave the area before a riot breaks out. There are always warnings, troublemakers do not appear out of nothingness, it takes a while for everyone to congregate. That is a warning to go in the opposite direction.

lastly, isn't that a picture of some factory disturbance in Bangladesh?

 

[Kleanbore]

I think CWL's comments pretty well wrap this up.