Model 70 vs Model 700 accuracy...

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marksman13

marksman13

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I’m about to have a custom rifle built. I’m going with a 300 Win Mag for sure. The idea is to have a very accurate, long range hunting rig. My personal experience has been that factory 700s shoot better than factory 70s, but what about the actions themselves. Can a Model 70 action be made to shoot as well as a Model 700 action? Are there limiting factors to how well a Model 70 action can be made to shoot?

Only reason I ask is that I have a Winchester Model 70 Extreme Weather in 270 that I was thinking about sacrificing the action of to build my long range hunting rig. I just don’t shoot this 270 much, but I love the action. Accuracy is my primary concern with this build though and if a M700 action is inherently more accurate than an M70 action, that’s the route I’ll go.
 
If accuracy is the main concern, I'd go with a custom action and have the rifle built to spec, or buy a semi custom already set up and ready to rock.

IMO, when planning something like this, it doesn't make a lot of financial sense to start with a full on factory action, unless you already have the action. Cost of the rifle plus having the action worked over will be higher than just buying a middling custom action ready to go.

Your .270s a poor choice to start from just because it will take opening the bolt face, or buying a new bolt to go to a magnum case head. The fatter magnum may also not feed from a standard box, I've seen that be hit or miss.....with more miss.

As to the question if which is inherently more accurate?
I've always thought the 700 was, but again, with factory actions I doubt there's a noticeable difference.

Personally I prefer the 700s look and feel to most other actions, so gravitate that way. Which is why I have a Christensen Ridgeline, and am considering a Mesa or Bergara premium for another off the shelf rifle.

If you LIKE the m70 more than others, I don't think building a rifle on it, or something like it would be a bad choice.
 
I have an M70 EW in .308; with factory loads, it is of average (1 -1.5”) accuracy at 100 yards - however with reloads, it is a tack driver. I also have a Kimber 84m (a mini M70 configuration) in .308 which behaves the same way as the M70 with factory (1.5”) and reloads. (1/2”). I have zero experience with the Remington 700 action; as with you, I like the M70 action and have never purchased anything with the 700 action.
I am not sure if either action is more inherently accurate than the other; the 700 does look less complicated than the M70 as far as engineering goes. I think that both actions set up properly will drive tacks with properly tuned hand loads and a good shooter behind it.
I agree with Loonwulf; I would purchase a custom action for a custom rifle if I was going to that trouble. But then again, your M70 EW action would probably be the start of a fine custom if you choose. It is hard to answer your question because of so many variables - the biggest being cost and where to put the money. If I had to give just a gut guess in the end, I would say that the 700 is easier to make custom accuracy because it Is a less complicated action than the M70 - but that is a very generalized statement.
 
I prefer the Winchester Model 70 action and safety....especially the "pre-64" style action. There's a reason FN didn't try to reinvent the wheel after they acquired Winchester and produced the pre-64 Model 70-based SPR. Accuracy in modern bolt guns has mainly to do with the barrel. FN used their own magnificent barrels in the SPR. If you're getting a custom-made barrel anyway, I'd put it on a Model 70 receiver.

Edited to add....if you can find an FN SPR in .300 Win Mag, you might just grab it and go from there. They stopped making them a few years back, but you can find them. All were supplied with McMillan stocks. As far as I know, they only made them in .308 Win and .300 Win Mag. I have yet to shoot my .308 Win that I bought about 18 years ago, but the factory test target shows .45" at 100 yards. I think they guaranteed all of them to shoot under MOA with the right ammo.
 
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Drop your 270 into a nice McMiIlan Edge stock, buy some good glass for it, work up some good loads and call it good. Use the money you save to pay for a hunt. I think it is EASIER to make a 700 shoot accurately than a 70 but the difference is small. That might be important for a target shooter where another 1/10 MOA might be noticed. The model 70 is the better hunting rifle and should be able to shoot sub MOA with the good ammo. When shooting from a bench that extra accuracy can be used. From field positions when hunting a 1 MOA rifle is going be just as accurate as a 1/2 MOA rifle.

Like Loonwolf said, converting a 270 to 300 WM isn't easy and will add to the cost. The 270 was the original long range rig and with modern loads and bullets is better than ever. I don't think the 300 starts to be any advantage unless you're talking about elk at 700 yards. Neither 270 nor 300 WM would be my 1st choice. If I had a 270 that I just didn't want and was looking to convert to something else the 280 AI would be my pick. It does almost anything 7mm Rem mag does and would be an easy conversion. You keep the 5+1 mag capacity and only need a barrel swap.

Of course the gains over the 270 you have would also be small. But it'd be different .
 
One aspect of the M70 that isn’t often brought up is the flat bottom. When it comes to rigidity and bearing surface for bedding, I’ll take a M70 over a 700 any day. As others have pointed out, and I tend to agree with, if building your “grail” gun, go with a custom action from the ground up. It makes financial sense and customs are more often than not already in-spec compared to mass produced actions like the 700 and the 70. I would go custom if it were my build, but I’ve been there a time or two and done that, so I’ve learned along the way.

As for a 700, it’s got more aftermarket support than any brand there is, and it’s the modern action against which all others are measured. Nothing really wrong with either a 700 or a 70, but build wise you’ll be glad you started custom. Find your gunsmith and ask him all the questions you can think of. He will tell you what he likes to work with, so listen carefully. Good luck!
 
The 70 and the 700 are both fine hunting actions. If you are choosing between them for accuracy potential the 700 is the winner.

When I started shooting benchrest back in the dark ages I built two rifles using M 70 actions. They were more difficult to true than the M 700 actions that everyone else was using. I could never quite get the performance out of them so I went back to M 700 actions. There is a reason that many of the current crop of custom actions are based on the M 700.
 
marksman13 said:
I’m about to have a custom rifle built. I’m going with a 300 Win Mag for sure. The idea is to have a very accurate, long range hunting rig. My personal experience has been that factory 700s shoot better than factory 70s, but what about the actions themselves. Can a Model 70 action be made to shoot as well as a Model 700 action? Are there limiting factors to how well a Model 70 action can be made to shoot?
Click to expand...
My opinion and only my opinion is everything you are asking is a matter of the smith who builds the rifle. Years ago I took several NRA rifle smith courses at Montgomery Community College in NC taught by Mr. James Messer who I believe is now deceased. I learned a lot from James as to the time, effort and quality tooling which goes into making a great rifle. Things like blueprinting and starting with a good action including some of the custom actions available. Anyway it will always go back to the person doing the work and their dedication and attention to detail. With a quality reputable smith you get what you pay for.

Ron
 
marksman, I see you're in MS. Do you know Don Geraci? He's in Independence, LA. Man, he's put together a couple of rifles for me based on 700s. Just threw a Krieger barrel onto the action, a little magic on the bolt face and viola?? Tack driver. Now, I'm talking a bit of time ago, but I spoke with a friend not too long ago and I'm hearing that Don is still building rifles. I think he just built one for D. Trump Jr. or some such thing.

Anyway, he can do full blown custom or doctor up what you have. I've shot lots of rifles he's done. 70's, 700's, Savage actions, the all shoot really well. Just make sure that what ever action you choose, has the triggers, stocks, mag systems, doodads that you want available for it.

As for custom actions, in my limited personal experience...I've always been a fan of 700's. I can take them out and treat them like a tool and expect them to work. With the custom actions, they are kind of like a girlfriend. You have to love them and treat them right or they'll give you trouble. You can loosen the specs up a bit to make them not so troublesome, but by the time you do that, you could have just used a stock action. But...believe me, I'm no rifle builder. talk to someone that knows.

But man, the last one that he put together for me, I wanna say it was a 1:10 twist krieger barrel. Anyway, he cut the chamber so tight that when I went the resize the brass, there was almost to resizing to be done. Cheap steel case ammo would even chamber...no, I wasn't going to shoot it, just wanted to see if it would chamber. So, my buddy chuck hands me a handful of rounds and says try these. Turned out to be 168gr Berger hunting VLDs, Win brass, CCI benchrest primers, reloader 15 powder. It was only 100 yards, but takes note of where the first shot landed. Then he calls misses on my second and third shots. I'm seriously scratching my head. So, I take my fourth shot and this time, chuck has his eye on the spotting scope while I'm shooting and says...wait, I saw the paper move. Same on the last shot. Turned out, all five rounds went through the same hole. I didn't even know how to measure the group, except to say that it was one hole slightly larger than .30 caliber.

Anyway, if you are looking for an ultra accurate rifle, see what your smith says about the downside of going with a custom action. Or call Don. Google him.

Really, the only time I'd consider a custom action is if you're competing for groups and measuring them with with a micrometer.
 
Varminterror said:
If you’re building a custom rifle, don’t waste money by starting with a factory Win or Rem action.
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This^^^^^^^^

I’m not trying to be smart or rude, but if you’re not understanding why trying to use a .270 bolt face isn’t a good idea, I’d suggest more research.

At one point I had the money to do a custom and found out everything posted above is spot on.

I have a factory Browning X-Bolt that’s only been shot one time for groups. Three shots with hand loaded rounds went into less than 1/2” at 100 yards. I had a custom AR upper in a custom caliber. Shilen barrel was amazingly accurate, but I’m not sure it’s worth an extra $1,000 to shoot maybe 1/10th better. But hey, it’s your money and if that’s what you want, have at it

If that’s the route you wanna go, Nature Boy had an excellent thread a few months back.
 
The initial advantage of the 700s was a faster lock time. With the changes made to the m70 firing pin assembly, there is little if any practical advantage there.

If anything, the advantage might now lie with the m70 for heavy cartridges due to the square bottom. It's harder to stock (which is why people who want to play Legos use 700s) but there's more than the action screws resisting action twist.

700s are easier to true, but no more true when done than a m70.

As a practical matter I would not want a hunting rifle with a 700 safety just due to poor design even if that particular rifle was safe (and no 700 that Remington has ever made has ever been safe without the installation of aftermarket parts - see the recalls). So that right there would ensure I never bought a 700.
 
TonyAngel said:
I've always been a fan of 700's. I can take them out and treat them like a tool and expect them to work. With the custom actions, they are kind of like a girlfriend. You have to love them and treat them right or they'll give you trouble.
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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Yeah.... um.... Not this....
 
Reloadron said:
With a quality reputable smith you get what you pay for.
Click to expand...

I agree. I also would argue that sometimes there's a big difference between gunsmiths who fix guns and those who make them. Of course, there are those who can do both but I would look for a smith who specializes in making custom rifles tailored to the customer's individual wants and needs.
 
I customized an FN SPR (M70) action. Had it trued, bolt timed, bolt handle upgrade, cerakoted, proof carbon barrel installed, bedded in a Mcmillan Game Warden stock.

I spent way more on it than I’d ever get out of it. Some would say that’s not worth it. Since I have no plans of selling it “worth” becomes relatively. I enjoy that rifle. It’s a deer slayer, a tack driver and it looks pretty cool too, if you ask me. These aren’t business decisions, but hey, that’s OK because I’m not in the gun business.

vCNf6o2.jpg

The OP does need to come back and fill in some blanks though. What are his expectations and how much does he have in his budget to spend
 
Bottom line is that I have a smith with a very good reputation whom has quoted $1500 to build a rifle with a trued Remington 700 and that is most likely the route I will go. This quote was based on a trued factory action, Hart barrel, Grayboe Renegade stock and M5 bottom metal. I’m probably going to go with a chassis of some sort and potentially going with a Proof Research Barrel. Should put the bare rifle around $2K. A buddy of mine has three rifles built by this guy and all three are capable of .5 MOA five shot groups with proper ammo. I’d expect the same level of accuracy. This will be a range rifle 99% of it’s life and be used to shoot in some friendly competitions. I’ll also use it to shoot some pigs at extended ranges. I honestly don’t know if the Proof Research Barrel is warranted for weight savings considering how little I’ll hunt with it, but I’d like it to be light enough to carry on a hunt if I so choose.

I only threw the Winchester idea out there because I like the action, but I honestly haven’t even talked to my smith about building on a Winchester action. I’ll probably just sell that Winchester and use the funds to help pay for better glass or ammo.
 
jmr40 said:
Drop your 270 into a nice McMiIlan Edge stock, buy some good glass for it, work up some good loads and call it good. Use the money you save to pay for a hunt. I think it is EASIER to make a 700 shoot accurately than a 70 but the difference is small. That might be important for a target shooter where another 1/10 MOA might be noticed. The model 70 is the better hunting rifle and should be able to shoot sub MOA with the good ammo. When shooting from a bench that extra accuracy can be used. From field positions when hunting a 1 MOA rifle is going be just as accurate as a 1/2 MOA rifle.

Like Loonwolf said, converting a 270 to 300 WM isn't easy and will add to the cost. The 270 was the original long range rig and with modern loads and bullets is better than ever. I don't think the 300 starts to be any advantage unless you're talking about elk at 700 yards. Neither 270 nor 300 WM would be my 1st choice. If I had a 270 that I just didn't want and was looking to convert to something else the 280 AI would be my pick. It does almost anything 7mm Rem mag does and would be an easy conversion. You keep the 5+1 mag capacity and only need a barrel swap.

Of course the gains over the 270 you have would also be small. But it'd be different .
Click to expand...

I want to throw a bigger piece of lead down range at pigs. My 6.5 Creedmoor gets down range just fine. I want something bigger at 800-1000 yards for pigs. The Army has had decent success with 300 Win Mag for a long time and ammo can be picked up fairly cheap compared to some of the boutique long range rounds out there.
 
Reloadron said:
My opinion and only my opinion is everything you are asking is a matter of the smith who builds the rifle. Years ago I took several NRA rifle smith courses at Montgomery Community College in NC taught by Mr. James Messer who I believe is now deceased. I learned a lot from James as to the time, effort and quality tooling which goes into making a great rifle. Things like blueprinting and starting with a good action including some of the custom actions available. Anyway it will always go back to the person doing the work and their dedication and attention to detail. With a quality reputable smith you get what you pay for.

Ron
Click to expand...

Messer built a couple of rifles for me back in the 90s when I was shooting BR. I used to drive down to Alan Halls in Clanton and sit and talk to Alan and his son for hours. Bought several actions from Alan over the years, and he recommended Jim to me. Hate to hear that he passed. He was truly a gentleman and a fine gunsmith. I wish I still had those rifles. I don’t know who I’d go to today for a rifle build. We are diminished.
 
Nature Boy said:
These aren’t business decisions, but hey, that’s OK because I’m not in the gun business.
Click to expand...
I have a few of those in the gun safe. Rifles I built to learn with no intention of ever selling as even discounting my own labor as free I likely have more in them than I would ever get back. That said I really enjoy a day at the range with them and that's all that matters.

Ron
 
I have had both a m70 & m700 in 30-06. The 700 shot much better than the m70 in the factory rifles. Just my experience.

If a custom rifle is the what you want? I would decide on the custom builder and work with him/her on what action to go with.
 
I’ve heard all of my life that’s it’s push feed vs CRF and accuracy goes to push feed. There’s got to be a reason other than aftermarket parts availability that the vast majority of competition rifles are push feed. I’m sure though a good gunsmith could make a CRF rifle as accurate as a push feed.
 
Anchorite said:
Messer built a couple of rifles for me back in the 90s when I was shooting BR. I used to drive down to Alan Halls in Clanton and sit and talk to Alan and his son for hours. Bought several actions from Alan over the years, and he recommended Jim to me. Hate to hear that he passed. He was truly a gentleman and a fine gunsmith. I wish I still had those rifles. I don’t know who I’d go to today for a rifle build. We are diminished.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it was during the early 90s. He would come in and teach NRA rifle smith classes at Montgomery Community College in NC. I learned so much from him. He normally came in with an assistant who you could tell was learning, heck, the assistant even did the driving of James truck. He was a great smith and always preferred being called James in class. He was also friends with George Kebly of Keblys Range where I shoot and where the Super Shoot was held every year. I believe this was the last year. I heard that James Messer had passed away but that is water fountain scuttlebutt so don't hold me to that. My brother-in-law and I would go down to NC every year for a course and shared some great times. He was out of West Va. and me NE Ohio. Hard to figure that is pushing 30 years ago. Hell, I am happy I am still around. :)

Ron
 
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