Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
Good idea. It's much easier to have a load that shoots well than it is to shoot the gun well. Get a good load and then get to work shooting.
Moly bullet question: Moly residue? Affect non moly performance?
- Thread starter Buckskinner
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Good idea. It's much easier to have a load that shoots well than it is to shoot the gun well. Get a good load and then get to work shooting.
Nando Aqui
Member
Oops - I was not familiar with the downside of moly-coated bullets, and had been using BlackHills 168-gr MOLY for higher-than surplus ammo accuracy. I used to reload many years ago, and I still have my RCBS press and collection of dies, scales, etc., but just don't do it. I have been getting the BH-moly from DSA at a reasonable cost (about $15/box) and this was affordable for me.
Fortunately, the BH-moly is all I have used on my Rem700PSS - safe there.
Unfortunately, I have switched back and forth a couple of times with my SA58 and M1A without cleaning in-between or following any special cleaning practices afterwards.
1) Can the moly be detrimental to the barrel, and if so, how?
2) If I want to compare how a rifle does with match-ammo vs. surplus*, would it be better if I just bought non-moly ammo for the comparison? (I have about 14 boxes of the BH-moly left.)
* Aussie and Port, which have been great, BTW.
3) I will keep using the BH-moly that I have on my Rem700PSS, and that is fine - but what should I do to preserve the other rifles that once or twice (maybe 20 to 40 rounds) had moly-coated bullets travel down their bores?
Thanks for your help!
Alex
Fortunately, the BH-moly is all I have used on my Rem700PSS - safe there.
Unfortunately, I have switched back and forth a couple of times with my SA58 and M1A without cleaning in-between or following any special cleaning practices afterwards.
1) Can the moly be detrimental to the barrel, and if so, how?
2) If I want to compare how a rifle does with match-ammo vs. surplus*, would it be better if I just bought non-moly ammo for the comparison? (I have about 14 boxes of the BH-moly left.)
* Aussie and Port, which have been great, BTW.
3) I will keep using the BH-moly that I have on my Rem700PSS, and that is fine - but what should I do to preserve the other rifles that once or twice (maybe 20 to 40 rounds) had moly-coated bullets travel down their bores?
Thanks for your help!
Alex
Grump
Member
I have a few questions, too.
Are the experiences with .223 translatable to .308? I'm cleaning with Sweet's over a few days' time, ending each session with Break Free to *perhaps* break things loose overnight. Haven't bought any Kroil yet, but I've heard that's the stuff to use after Moly.
I have moly on my plinking/practice bullets, and they will do about 2 MOA and my hope is to minimize barrel wear, especially when the kids are hosing cans at short range. The POI seems to be a good 3-4 inches away from naked 168s, at about 2 o-'clock, at only 100 yards. Can't really say how many rounds it takes to settle down the group sizes though.
After cleaning, does it really take only 3 or so rounds of bare bullets to stabilize group sizes in a .30-bore rifle? And how much does it change--POI drifting into the new group center, or random, and how many MOA?
After cleaning, how many rounds does it take for the moly bullets to stabilize group sizes in a .30-bore rifle? Again, how much change--POI drift or random, how many MOA?
Ultimately, I plan to get cold-bore data on both bullets. I'm right now a two-load guy.
edit: BTW, I'm using an Armscorp "NM" medium-heavy barrel (profile is slightly heavier--not cylindrical-- only from the chamber to the gas cylinder area), which I believe is NOT comparable to a Douglas or Krieger or Hart or whoever is popular these days. But it's done 1 MOA 5-shot groups at 200 with irons.
Are the experiences with .223 translatable to .308? I'm cleaning with Sweet's over a few days' time, ending each session with Break Free to *perhaps* break things loose overnight. Haven't bought any Kroil yet, but I've heard that's the stuff to use after Moly.
I have moly on my plinking/practice bullets, and they will do about 2 MOA and my hope is to minimize barrel wear, especially when the kids are hosing cans at short range. The POI seems to be a good 3-4 inches away from naked 168s, at about 2 o-'clock, at only 100 yards. Can't really say how many rounds it takes to settle down the group sizes though.
After cleaning, does it really take only 3 or so rounds of bare bullets to stabilize group sizes in a .30-bore rifle? And how much does it change--POI drifting into the new group center, or random, and how many MOA?
After cleaning, how many rounds does it take for the moly bullets to stabilize group sizes in a .30-bore rifle? Again, how much change--POI drift or random, how many MOA?
Ultimately, I plan to get cold-bore data on both bullets. I'm right now a two-load guy.
edit: BTW, I'm using an Armscorp "NM" medium-heavy barrel (profile is slightly heavier--not cylindrical-- only from the chamber to the gas cylinder area), which I believe is NOT comparable to a Douglas or Krieger or Hart or whoever is popular these days. But it's done 1 MOA 5-shot groups at 200 with irons.
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
It is translatable, just not directlytranslatable. I would expect to run 10 rounds through before I trusted the new zero. Each rifle being a law unto itself, one must only take stuff like this as a guide, and then see how closely your gun fits. No one can tell you what yours will do. Some time with the rifle will tell you everything.
Steve
Steve
Nando Aqui
Member
Steve,
Paraphrasing one of my earlier questions related to using moly-coated and uncoated bullets - -
1) Can the moly be detrimental to the barrel, and if so, what can be done about it?
Or is it just a question of a change in POI until the moly is gone?
Thanks!
Alex
Paraphrasing one of my earlier questions related to using moly-coated and uncoated bullets - -
1) Can the moly be detrimental to the barrel, and if so, what can be done about it?
Or is it just a question of a change in POI until the moly is gone?
Thanks!
Alex
30Cal
Member
I believe you have to shoot the same rifle over the course, and switching uppers might get you a protest in a serious match.
I think if you aren't going to shoot moly exclusively, then stick with traditional uncoated bullets. If you want to do side-by-side of match vs surplus, then I'd stay away from moly for the time being. Besides, there aren't many people who will claim that moly will yield better accuracy. Most folks I talk to say that it's benefits are found elsewhere.
Personally, I've shot moly for 2 or 3 seasons now in an M1A. I clean w/ Kroil and a nylon brush. At ~300rds, I use solvent and JB Bore Paste and work the barrel back to bare metal. Don't bother starting w/ moly unless the bore is completely bare of copper and other fouling.
I don't see appreciably changes in POI after cleaning, but my first rounds are usually shot offhand, so take that for what it's worth. I shoot high 90's offhand and my call is generally 1MoA or a little better. I usually run a patch w/ alcohol followed by a dry patch before I fire. Anyways, any change in POI due to cleaning would be 1.5MoA, but probably less--I'm thinking 1/2 MoA is a better guess--for the first 2 rds. If starting from bare metal, you might see some variation in the first 5-10 rounds, but I typically am not in a position to observe that personally.
The potential downsides of moly:
Some folks say they get an excessive buildup of moly at 300-500 rounds which will degrade accuracy, but this claim is debated among the guys who shoot it a lot. This is the reason for the JB paste cleaning I do, but I haven't left it in longer than say 400 rounds to confirm or discount this statement.
Some folks say that it attracts moisture and can lead to pitting. This is also tied in with concerns that sulfuric impurities in the moly will lead to localized acidic areas, again leading to pitting. My bore is definitely pitted, but let me also say that I had a saltwater aquarium for 2 years that was evaporating 1-2 gal of water a day, so that would definitely be a factor. Personally, I think that moly and a moist environment make a situation ripe for corrosion. My recommendation: if you shoot moly, get a coat of oil in the barrel ASAP after shooting and keep it there until you're ready to shoot again. If you do this, you shouldn't have a problem. BTW, I wouldn't use Kroil or other penetrating oil as a rust preservative. The protective barrier that it provides against O2 does not remain intact for more than a couple of days IMO/IME.
Upsides:
Quick cleaning & longer period of accuracy between cleanings. It will give you lower velocities, but the corresponding decrease in pressure will be more. This can be used two ways. First, keeping the powder charge the same will yield a longer barrel life (Tubb estimates something like 20%). Second, increase the powder charge and eventually get higher velocities for the same pressure that you would have with uncoated bullets.
Ty
I think if you aren't going to shoot moly exclusively, then stick with traditional uncoated bullets. If you want to do side-by-side of match vs surplus, then I'd stay away from moly for the time being. Besides, there aren't many people who will claim that moly will yield better accuracy. Most folks I talk to say that it's benefits are found elsewhere.
Personally, I've shot moly for 2 or 3 seasons now in an M1A. I clean w/ Kroil and a nylon brush. At ~300rds, I use solvent and JB Bore Paste and work the barrel back to bare metal. Don't bother starting w/ moly unless the bore is completely bare of copper and other fouling.
I don't see appreciably changes in POI after cleaning, but my first rounds are usually shot offhand, so take that for what it's worth. I shoot high 90's offhand and my call is generally 1MoA or a little better. I usually run a patch w/ alcohol followed by a dry patch before I fire. Anyways, any change in POI due to cleaning would be 1.5MoA, but probably less--I'm thinking 1/2 MoA is a better guess--for the first 2 rds. If starting from bare metal, you might see some variation in the first 5-10 rounds, but I typically am not in a position to observe that personally.
The potential downsides of moly:
Some folks say they get an excessive buildup of moly at 300-500 rounds which will degrade accuracy, but this claim is debated among the guys who shoot it a lot. This is the reason for the JB paste cleaning I do, but I haven't left it in longer than say 400 rounds to confirm or discount this statement.
Some folks say that it attracts moisture and can lead to pitting. This is also tied in with concerns that sulfuric impurities in the moly will lead to localized acidic areas, again leading to pitting. My bore is definitely pitted, but let me also say that I had a saltwater aquarium for 2 years that was evaporating 1-2 gal of water a day, so that would definitely be a factor. Personally, I think that moly and a moist environment make a situation ripe for corrosion. My recommendation: if you shoot moly, get a coat of oil in the barrel ASAP after shooting and keep it there until you're ready to shoot again. If you do this, you shouldn't have a problem. BTW, I wouldn't use Kroil or other penetrating oil as a rust preservative. The protective barrier that it provides against O2 does not remain intact for more than a couple of days IMO/IME.
Upsides:
Quick cleaning & longer period of accuracy between cleanings. It will give you lower velocities, but the corresponding decrease in pressure will be more. This can be used two ways. First, keeping the powder charge the same will yield a longer barrel life (Tubb estimates something like 20%). Second, increase the powder charge and eventually get higher velocities for the same pressure that you would have with uncoated bullets.
Ty
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
I'm not expert, and just beginning my experience with it, but I do have a ton of friends that use it. Moly is, if anything, good for the bore, in that it theoretically increases barrrel life. This is a secondary (if anything) benefit.
atek3
Member
steve, so far only moly'd 69 gr smk's have been fired out of my 223 bolt gun. If I want a 1000 yd. 80 gr SMK load should I go with moly? If I don't have to, after my current batch of moly'd 223 runs out I'd like to permanantly cease using the stuff, but if I need it...
thanks
atek3
thanks
atek3
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
Folks have used 80s at 1K with mediocre success. The 90s are what allowed the AR to start beating the M14 at that distance. For 90's, moly is almost a requirement (one guy I know does not use moly, but uses staked primers instead). You can push 90s HARD with moly. For 80s, I just don't know. I think you are already looking uphill.
atek3
Member
Not really looking for a 'competitive load', just looking for something that will stay supersonic at 1k. But if 80 gr. won't do it, I'll have to wait til I've shot out the barrel out of my tikka before I try any long range stuff.
atek3
atek3
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