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Money buys accuracy?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Rembrandt, Mar 6, 2010.

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  1. Rembrandt

    Rembrandt Member

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    Every week seems there are 3-4 threads that have a common theme....

    "I want an accurate rifle......but can't spend any money", make a recommendation.

    When someone suggests a gun that's more costly than the average, posters invariably respond that their $300 Blah Blah shoots just as well as those overpriced priced rifles.

    The frustration with these posts is that my definition of accuracy and those asking the question are apples and oranges.....clarity of what the poster expects the rifle to do would be helpful.

    How do you politely educate someone that their $200 plinker is NOT in the same class as a higher end more costly rifle?
     
  2. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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    Maybe not in the same class but CAN be just as accurate.
     
  3. KevinR

    KevinR Member

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    I agree with you that money tends to enhance accuracy. However I have seen just the opposite. I have seen $2000 rifles that do not shoot as good as my Rem 700 SPS Tactical. I have also seen $400 savages that shoot just as good as my Rem. But if all things are equal I tend to lean the direction of the money.
     
  4. LeonCarr

    LeonCarr Member

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    Most factory scoped bolt action rifles, with some minor bedding/trigger tuning, will shoot under 1 MOA and approach 1/2 MOA. I asked a benchrest shooting buddy of mine what the difference was between a 3/4 MOA rifle and a 1/2 MOA rifle. He said, "About 2500 bucks".

    Just my .02,
    LeonCarr
     
  5. dakotasin

    dakotasin Member

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    to answer the question, you can't unless or until someone shoots the difference reliably and consistently for themselves.
     
  6. jpwilly

    jpwilly Member

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    I find that to be quite true. 1MOA is available today for $400 bucks+ depending on the mfg and the type of rifle your purchasing. I've spent less and gotten 1MOA so maybe price doesn't matter as much anyway but to have a rifle that will shoot .5MOA consistently does take more $$$ and the best ammo you can buy or build and you have to be consistent as a shooter.

    I have a few rifles that will shoot better than 1MOA and just a touch better consistently.

    1. Savage 10 308 with hand loads and even Federal ammo plinking ammo.

    2. DPMS AR-15 shooting Hand loads and American Eagle bulk packs...rifle does have a 20" Bull Barrel and match trigger.

    3. Mossberg ATR 30-06 - (surprise) Factory Federal Power Shok hunting ammo shoots under 1" consistently but I've only shot 3 shot groups - after all it's a hunting rifle not a target rifle.
     
  7. 545days

    545days Member

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    Money buys precision. The shooter provides accuracy through sighting in, aiming, and good marksmanship.

    Example 1: 1/4 minute of angle groups hiting 2 feet left and 3 feet down from point of aim is very precise, but not very accurate. They are missing the point of aim by 3.6 feet.

    Example 2: 4 minute of angle groups centered on the point of aim are more accurate than example 1, but are 16 times less precise.
     
  8. Horsemany

    Horsemany Member

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    I think for the sake of the thread we can assume the OP was referring to precision and accuracy interchageably. We can all agree the majority of the time when people refer to accurate rifles they are truly meaning...precision.
     
  9. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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    Horsemany,I think it was proper in light of the OP's statement to make that distinction.
     
  10. Uncle Mike

    Uncle Mike Member

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    Hehehehe.... half the people want something for nothing and the other half doesn't know what an accurate rifle is. :eek:

    Guys that really 'need' an accurate rifle, the ones who have invested great amounts of time and money into learning to drive that fancy rifle to its maximum potential, rarely bish about the cost of a $2500 rig. ;)

    The complainers....the guy who does the local weekend 'sniper' match but hasn't shot his rig once since the last match he attended two years ago, the same guy who shows up to the deer camp in his Hummer setting on 26" rims and insists everyone fondle his $2500 deer blaster... same guy who gets his butt handed to him by the kid with the Mossberg ATR at that local match...these are the complainers! But they will pay it, gotta give off that special persona, right!?! :banghead:

    The working guy, the guy who takes that run of the mill Mossberg, Savage, Remington Tikka, whatever... invests in only the best on-sale economy ammunition, takes the time to know his rifle, learn how to get it done with his rifle...this is the guy who leaves last form camp stinking like old spice and Marlboro's and returns to camp first with the biggest deer...this guy, he doesn't complain about the cost of a $2500 rifle, he doesn't care, he doesn't need or really want one, and he knows it! :p

    So, after 30 years of building and selling expensive rifles, you see a pattern in the type of guy who complains about the price of a....a $2500 rifle.

    Can you see the pattern? :cool:
     
  11. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "Blah Blah shoots just as well as"

    In my experience, one or so out of every thousand, or ten thousand, of a less expensive model might shoot as well as the average $2000+ model. But 98% of that expensive production run is going to be good, and a fair percentage are going to be exceptional. So sure, I'm never surprised to see the odd cheap gun turn up shooting really small groups. Accidents happen and the important parts really fit together well.

    You just have to keep trying out guns until you find the ones you want to keep. Never sell a gun that shoots straight (thinking that you can pick up another one just like it later.) I watched my uncle do this back in the '50s and '60s, mostly with .22 rifles, but he liked his .222 and .30-06, and .444 Marlin, too. I never can remember if he traded 7 used rifles for 11 or 11 for 7 and I can't remember to ask him.

    John

    P.S. - I don't think there's anything wrong with an accurate gun being pretty either. A Cooper .22 LR.

    [​IMG]


    Edited to add: Jeez, I just looked and a Model 57 .22 LR Cooper Custom Classic now lists for $2495. I guess it's been 5 or 10 years since I paid $1600 for that one for my father.
     
  12. Onward Allusion

    Onward Allusion Member

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    80% (or a dang good portion) of a rifle's (or pistol for that matter) accuracy is the person doing the shooting.
     
  13. Onward Allusion

    Onward Allusion Member

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    Amen!

     
  14. jpwilly

    jpwilly Member

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    That's true but I cheat and shoot from the bench rest / sandbags quite often to see how my hand loads and rifles will shoot. From the other positions I'm nowhere close to an MOA shooter and could easily get schooled. I'm out every month for 4hrs. I do practice from the other positions and at home and practice snapping in occasionally but that's about it I have far too many other priorities.
     
  15. fireside44

    fireside44 Member

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    Shoot tighter groups.

    A accurate gun that costs 2g's with a fair shooter is less accurate than a five hundred dollar Savage with a great marksman behind it.
     
  16. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    I think a lot of people don't understand the Law of Diminishing Returns.

    You can theoretically go forever. Tweaking, testing, trying again. Every improvement you get will cost you exponentially more in time and material than the last one. I have told people that you can take a stock Remington 700 VS, Bushnell optics, have the trigger lightened to 3 lbs, get some match grade ammo, and for about $1000 you will be able to do almost everything that a $4000 M-40A3 can do with Schmidt & Bender optics, etc.

    Remember, only about 20 years ago, manufacturing standards were not nearly as tight as they are now. The gun magazines used to refer to the "elusive" minute of angle. You had to get a lucky rifle in the batch, have a custom rifle built, and use handloads to get it under an inch. It's not like that anymore. Competition and modern manufacturing techniques have made the market such that if a stock rifle won't do 1" or better with match ammo, it is behind the curve.
     
  17. Uncle Mike

    Uncle Mike Member

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    Most folks who are under the impression that their, or a, $200 rifle is in the same class as a $2500 rifle don't know what they are looking at, I mean a tube with a funny little handle looking thingy at one end wedged into a wood or plastic stock......

    Politely educate these people without degrading their person or knowledge!
     
  18. homers

    homers Member

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    Add to that the when the person wants a "cheap scope" for $100 bucks to put on top of their sub 1MOA shooter that has glass as good as $500 scopes.
     
  19. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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    This is true. Otherwise we could all win the Grand Prix if we just had Jackie Stewart's car.
     
  20. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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    Yeah go ahead and tell 'em that. see how far that gets ya!
     
  21. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    A good pool player can beat my eyes out with a broom stick, but I'll give that rascal the better rifle and beat his eyes out. :D

    Money buys a better chance of really good accuracy. The right money spent on the right product can buy guilt edged accuracy, if the shooter is up to it. ;)
     
  22. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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    Can't argue with that!
     
  23. Hatterasguy

    Hatterasguy Member

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    Don't forget the optics, your can spend the price of the rifle again on optics.

    Something like a nice Zeiss is serious bucks.


    Personaly I'm not a very good shooter, I can hit what I want but even if I had a sub MOA rifle I probably would not be able to make it shoot that well.
     
  24. benzy2

    benzy2 Member

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    This goes directly back to the ability of the shooter. If both qualities of rifle exceed the shooters ability they often compare them as being equal and can't justify the cost. I can understand why that comparison is made. It doesn't make the lessor rifle equal to the greater rifle, but it also doesn't mean you could distinguish which rifle shot which group. For many people this is all that matters and all the better it is going to get. For this situation I can understand the comment that the budget rifle shoots for them no better than the expensive rifle. Like anything in life the better you want your skills and equipment to be, the exponentially more you have to spend. It doesn't make settling for 90% right and it doesn't make only accepting the best to be right, just different strokes for different folks. The gains diminish, but in general are still present.
     
  25. Caliper_Mi

    Caliper_Mi Member

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    It's just the law of diminishing returns and the fact that for an accurate rifle you are paying for stuff that you can't see, like a great action, trigger, bore, etc. But, between a $500 and $2500 rifle, how much of that premium goes towards the stuff you do see and that doesn't really help accuracy? Checkered wood stock vs composite? Extra polishing on the exterior metal and maybe some pretty engraving? When people pay $2500 for a rifle, most expect some eye candy and we know that adds to the cost. Also, consider that even a perfect clone of a $500 Remchester rifle would cost more if made by a smaller shop just due to economies of scale.

    To answer the "hypothetical" (quotations because it does get asked) question above, you first have to define how the asker defines accuracy. Will someone be happy with 1MOA? Or are they wanting 0.25MOA? Will they be shooting standing in the desert or off a bench, indoors?

    I think that often that question boils down to the best bang for the buck if the asker is totally honest. People know that a top end rifle is better made than a lower dollar one. Maybe not 5x better, but still better. They also know that not all $500 (or $300, or $2500) rifles are created equal and at any price range certain products are better bargains than others. If someone doesn't have the money for a $2500 rifle, they don't have the money and no amount of browbeating about how the expensive rifle is better will make money grow on trees. If $500 is all one has for a rifle, that's the budget, and they will put just as much consideration into that $500 purchase as someone who can just afford a $2500 rifle will put into theirs. To that person, $500 may be A LOT of money and they want to make sure they don't go wrong because most of us can't afford to just go and buy another $500 rifle if the first one shoots patterns at 50 yards.
     
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