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More ban 50 caliber bs

Discussion in 'Legal' started by LAR-15, Feb 11, 2006.

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  1. LAR-15

    LAR-15 Member

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    THE .50 CALIBER SNIPER RIFLE
    WHY CONGRESS MUST ACT
    The fifty-caliber sniper rifle belongs on the battlefield, not in our streets. Congress
    should strongly regulate the sale of these military weapons to civilians. Here’s why.
    The fifty-caliber sniper rifle is a dream weapon for terrorists. The gun can:
    • Destroy virtually any target: The gun can take down an airplane, pulverize concrete
    bunkers, destroy armored vehicles, or penetrate several inches of steel, a three and a half
    inch manhole cover, or a 600-pound safe.1
    • Hit targets from over a mile away: The gun is accurate from a distance of 2,000 yards
    and is “effective” up to 7,500 yards – over four miles. As a leading authority noted,
    Barrett Firearms, the major .50 caliber weapon manufacturer, “promoted the weapon to
    wreck several million dollars worth of jet aircraft with one or two dollars worth of
    cartridge.”2
    • Evade law enforcement: A terrorist could fire over a mile away from its intended target
    and assassinate officials in armored vehicles, bring down airplanes or helicopters, fire
    into office buildings, onto bridges, or reach any number of targets. The RAND Corp.
    was “unable to identify any truly satisfactory solution” to a potential scenario where
    terrorists used these weapons to target parked or taxiing aircraft.3 When David Koresh
    and his Branch Davidian followers employed .50 caliber weapons at Waco, the FBI’s
    Bradley fighting vehicles provided little protection.4
    The weapon is readily available to civilians, including suspected terrorists.
    • Under current law, any person who is at least 18 years old and is not a felon or otherwise
    prohibited by law from purchasing a firearm, can purchase an unlimited number of these
    guns. This includes suspected terrorists on the No Fly list, dangerous persons the federal
    government has listed in the Violent Gang and Terrorist Organization File, as well as
    “straw purchasers” for criminals. Some states allow children as young as 14 to lawfully
    possess these weapons.5
    1 Long-Range Fifty Caliber Sniper Weapons, Minority Staff Report, Committee on Government Reform, United
    States House of Representatives, May 3, 1999.
    2 Id. at i.
    3 Big Rifle a Terrorist Tool?, CBS News, Jan. 9, 2005.
    4 The Big Gun (II), Sixty Minutes Segment, Run Date: Mar. 20, 2005.
    5 See Long-Range Fifty Caliber Sniper Weapons at 9. See also 18 U.S.C. § 922; Gun Control and Terrorism: FBI
    Could Better Manage Firearm-Related Background Checks Involving Terrorist Watch List Records, United States
    Gov Accountability Office Report to Congressional Requesters, Jan. 2005.



    Congressional report found that these weapons “have become widely available in the
    civilian market.” Dealers who will sell these weapons to civilians are easy to find on the
    Internet.6
    There is no good reason that would justify placing citizens at risk from these weapons.
    • As the Chicago Tribune wrote, “unless one is hunting mammoths or dinosaurs, it’s hard
    to justify the sporting need for a nearly 5-foot-long weapon that fires the largest
    commercially available cartridge in the world.”9 Ronnie Barrett, the industry
    manufacturing leader of .50 caliber rifles, offered this justification for the sale of these
    weapons to civilians: “It’s a toy. It’s a high-end adult recreational toy.”10
    • Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger (R-CA) recognized that this weapon does not belong
    on the streets when he signed the nation’s first law banning possession and sale of the .50
    caliber rifle. Several states are considering similar legislation.11 But unless Congress
    passes a national law, these firearms will continue to be easily available to terrorists,
    criminals and other violent people.
    6 Long-Range Fifty Caliber Sniper Weapons.
    7 Suspect Organizations and Individuals Possessing Long-Range Fifty Caliber Sniper Weapons, Minority Staff
    Report, Committee on Government Reform, United States House of Representatives, Aug. 17, 1999.
    8 The Big Gun (II).
    9 Editorial, Dangerous Gun Fun, The Chicago Tribune, Apr. 14, 2005.
    10 The Big Gun (I), Sixty Minutes Segment, Run Date: Jan. 9, 2005.
    11 Big Rifle a Terrorist Tool?
     
  2. Kodiaz

    Kodiaz member

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    Destroy any target? :what: :what:

    I want one. I want one.
     
  3. LAR-15

    LAR-15 Member

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    According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), the .50 caliber
    sniper rifle has a dangerous history of criminal misuse. This can only worsen as the weapon
    becomes cheaper and more readily available. ATF has linked .50 caliber BMG sniper rifles to
    drug dealers, international drug cartels, militia and terrorist groups and a religious cult.
    As part of an investigation for the House Committee on Government Reform, Government
    Accounting Office investigators traced .50 caliber sniper rifles seized from crime suspects and
    found that many of the weapons were discovered at “the scene of some extremely troubling
    criminal activities” including international terrorism and foreign drug cartels. GAO investigators
    concluded that “the accessibility of these weapons in the United States is becoming known
    worldwide.” See Long Range Fifty Caliber Sniper Weapons, prepared by Government
    Accounting Office for U.S. House of Representative, Committee on Government Reform, May
    3, 1999.
    The following summarizes just a few of the cases in which .50 caliber sniper rifles have been
    identified:
     An international drug cartel in Mexico was discovered with a .50 caliber sniper rifle and
    100 AK-47s at the scene of a multiple homicide shootout. The Los Angeles Police
    Department assisted Mexican authorities in tracing the .50 caliber sniper rifle to a gun
    dealer in Wyoming.12
     A member of the radical Mountaineer Militia in West Virginia was arrested by federal
    agents in a plot to bomb an FBI office. A search of the suspect's home recovered a .50
    caliber sniper rifle.13
     ATF agents reported that the Branch Davidians at Waco fired .50 caliber sniper rifles at
    ATF agents attempting to execute a search warrant. ATF had requested the use of
    Bradley Fighting Vehicles to execute the search warrant because the Bradley is believed
    capable of withstanding .50 caliber firearms. But the Bradley's were not used and four
    agents were killed.14
     Two members of a doomsday religious cult in Montana that built underground bunkers
    were convicted of using false identification to stockpile ten .50 caliber sniper rifles along
    with hundreds of other firearms and thousands of rounds of ammunition.15
    12 Suspect Organizations and Individuals Possessing Long-Range Fifty Caliber Sniper Weapons at 10; Office of
    Special Investigations, U.S. General Accounting Office, Briefing Paper: Criminal Activity Associated with .50
    Caliber Semiautomatic Rifles, presented to representatives of the U.S. House Committee on Government Reform,
    July 15, 1999, at 4.
    13 Suspect Organizations and Individuals Possessing Long-Range Fifty Caliber Sniper Weapons at 10.
    14 Suspect Organizations and Individuals Possessing Long-Range Fifty Caliber Sniper Weapons at 7; Briefing
    Paper: Criminal Activity Associated with .50 Caliber Semiautomatic Rifles at 4.
    15 Suspect Organizations and Individuals Possessing Long-Range Fifty Caliber Sniper Weapons at 7; Briefing
    Paper: Criminal Activity Associated with .50 Caliber Semiautomatic Rifles at 3.

    A survivalist in Georgia stockpiled 115 firearms, including two .50 caliber sniper rifles,
    100,000 rounds of ammunition, and silencers. The tax protestor, who had purchased the
    firearms with false identification, was arrested in a joint raid by ATF and the IRS.16
     Seven suspects with two .50 caliber sniper rifles were arrested by the U.S. Coast Guard in
    the Caribbean in a plot to assassinate Fidel Castro by using the .50 caliber sniper rifles to
    shoot down his plane off the coast of Venezuela.17
     .50 caliber sniper rifles have been recovered by state police from drug dealers in
    California, Missouri and Indiana.
     
  4. gc70

    gc70 Member

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  5. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Heck, I hear those mean terrible awful horrible evil malicious malodorous .50 caliber rifles cause cancer, too.
     
  6. BigRobT

    BigRobT Member

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    And next will be the .416, the .338 Lapua, and on down the line........

    It really sickens me that the person who did that "manufactured" video with all of the "hollywood" special effects has made the .50 cal rifle into the evil thing it has become. I've seen the report that the 50 cal rifles they had in Waco were NEVER used. There are even some theories they were planted. Once again, our "wonderful" Government wants to rape the Second Amendment and ALL that it stands for.
     
  7. ElTacoGrande

    ElTacoGrande Member

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    And then we'll get to the other side: "These bullets are too small! You can't hunt with a 22 cal bullet in a rifle; it's only good for killing people, so ban them!" The same thing has happened with handguns: 5.7mm is too small! 50cal is too big! Lorcins are too cheap! Custom 1911s are too expensive (and banned in California for that reason)!
     
  8. Lucky

    Lucky Member

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    Man, there's just no reasoning with you. They give you a good reason every time, but it just goes in one ear and out the other.:neener:
     
  9. cracked butt

    cracked butt Member

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    And ban 30-30's as well because they are... well, ....they are just right.

    Edit: I think banning 30-30 ammunition could have been the best thing goobermint could have ever done to spur a RKBA civil rights revolution. I was secretly hoping for Fat Ted to get his way on that one.
     
  10. Lucky

    Lucky Member

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    Let me say, right off, that I don't suggest anything, propose anything, support anything, or plan anything.

    But, I have to point out:

    If you wait for other people to revolt, you will wait forever. Hoping that some action will goad a few more people into outrage, seems like a fool's errand.

    I'm just going off the top of my head here, but revolts always seem to be small things that happen, and then grow large. They don't grow large and then happen. I'm not sure of the reasons, but that's just the way they seem.

    So when you hope that some cartridge will be banned, that's a small thing affecting large numbers, not a large thing. That's probably why they do little small increments at a time, because they don't want a fire to start and spread.
     
  11. BostonGeorge

    BostonGeorge Member

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    It's amazing to me that the author makes this staement and then skirts around the issue of the .50's use in crime. As far as I can tell, the only support for this statement is in the multiple incidents of possesion by alleged 'potential' criminals. :rolleyes: :barf:
     
  12. Stickjockey

    Stickjockey Member

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    Yup. I saw not a single incident where the rifles were actually used in a crime, with the possible exception of the Waco thing. Then I saw gc70's post and even that was shot down.
     
  13. mrb302

    mrb302 Member

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    The way I see it, anything with these sources:

    3 Big Rifle a Terrorist Tool?, CBS News, Jan. 9, 2005.
    4 The Big Gun (II), Sixty Minutes Segment, Run Date: Mar. 20, 2005.

    might as well be disregarded. That cuts out almost half the argument.

    Lucky hit it right on the head. If you want to totally ban firearms then you start small. Ban .50's, and then some other small % feature, and then another caliber, and then...blah, blah, blah.

    Before long we'll be left with just out .22 single shot pistols limited to a 4 inch barrel or less. Total BS.:barf:

    At this time I would like to say... Join the NRA and support the 2nd amnedment.
    [mrb302 climbs off the soapbox]
     
  14. TooTaxed

    TooTaxed Member

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    LAR-15 is quite correct. His reasons are valid, and the arguments I see for not banning .50.s are not.

    Consider: .50s are not useful for hunting...and it is extremely hard to find a range where an owner can shoot one legally (I've tried...can't even shoot them on our Ft. Benning range)...how far is the nearest one to you? Shooting them on a 100-yd or two hundred yard range gets a bit rediculous. There aren't any official target matches where they can be used in our match programs. The same is not true for other cartridges such as the .338 Win Magnum.

    On the other hand, they are extremely useful for terrorist activities, such as anti-vehicle use and very long range sniping.

    I lived in the Washington, DC/Arlington VA area back when the ban on machineguns was proposed...and the NRA came strongly against it, attacking some very popular congressmen. We lost...and the NRA has never regained the faith and trust the American people had in that area up to that point.

    Let us not make a similar foolish mistake with .50s!! We should NOT fight to protect guns primarily useful to terrorists. If we do so, more distrust against the NRA will occur, and future battles on very valid issues will be much more difficult.
     
  15. ServiceSoon

    ServiceSoon Member

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    So you are saying let them win this one?

    Maybe before that happens you should buy one, because I dont see them taking them away if they were purchased legally before the ban.
     
  16. TooTaxed

    TooTaxed Member

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    LAR-15 is quite correct. His reasons are valid, and the arguments I see for not banning .50.s are not.

    Consider: .50s are not useful for hunting...and it is extremely hard to find a range where an owner can shoot one legally (I've tried...can't even shoot them on our Ft. Benning range)...how far is the nearest one to you? Shooting them on a 100-yd or two hundred yard range gets a bit rediculous. There aren't any official target matches where they can be used in our match programs. The same is not true for other cartridges such as the .338 Win Magnum.

    On the other hand, they are extremely useful for terrorist activities, such as anti-vehicle use and very long range sniping.

    I lived in the Washington, DC/Arlington VA area back when the ban on machineguns was proposed...and the NRA came strongly against it, attacking some very popular congressmen. We lost...and the NRA has never regained the faith and trust the American people had in that area up to that point.

    Let us not make a similar foolish mistake with .50s!! We should NOT fight to protect guns primarily useful to terrorists. If we do so, more distrust against the NRA will occur, and future battles on very valid issues will be much more difficult.
     
  17. CZ 75 BD

    CZ 75 BD Member

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    LAR-15

    source?
     
  18. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    "We should NOT fight to protect guns primarily useful to terrorists."

    Okay, fine. That eliminates concern over the .50BMGs. They haven't been used by terrorists. PRIMARILY they're used by target shooters who are members of organized clubs. The next most common use is by the US military.

    Art
     
  19. Otherguy Overby

    Otherguy Overby member

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    You were alive and in DC in 1934? The NRA was there, too? The National Firearms Act was about placing a prohibitive "tax" on the unPC weapons of that time.

    Or, are you mixing up the 1994 "assault" weapon ban with machine guns?



    Aha, the Neville Chamberalin approach to maintaining your gun rights, "we'll just give them up a little at a time". Peace in our time, appeasement regardless the cost strategy
     
  20. Stickjockey

    Stickjockey Member

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    I know of at least one 1000-meter range within 40 minutes of my front door.

    First off, this is the same argument used to "ban" so-called "assault weapons" in 1994. How many times did we hear, "This is the preferred weapon of criminals?"
    Should we then ban Ferraris because they might be used in illegal street racing or drunk driving?

    Second, I don't believe the government should be able to ban possession of an inanimate object based on how it might be used. Too close to "thought crime" or maybe a "Minority Report" scenario for me.
     
  21. bcolorado

    bcolorado Member

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    In a similar vane we should ban the luge. There are very few places to do this and more people get injured each year luging than participating in 50 cal matches.
     
  22. Merkin.Muffley

    Merkin.Muffley member

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    Legislation like this won't go anywhere, and even if it did there is no way President Bush would sign it. He's on our side.
     
  23. Maxwell

    Maxwell Member

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    The danger is that it will because the majority of folks out there dont know and likely dont care what a .50bmg rifle is worth. Its use has been limited, and the legends of the easily concealed ultimate tank impailing weapon will long preceed it in many voters minds.

    I am concerned that Bush is not the friend of rkba that some people may paint him as. The AW ban was not torn down with any level of force, batfe has not been restrained, and he has other important things on his agenda.

    If they bury this ban with some other "must pass" law, he will sign it.

    The anti's have a simple line of reasoning: "If you dont need it, lets ban it!". A .50 weapon does not have many civilian uses to fall back on. Our problem is not only selling rifles, but exposing those fun-police who masquerade as "concerned citizens" in an attempt to play the fear card.
     
  24. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    Incorrect.

    No, they're not. What percentage of terrorist attacks over the last 20 years have been carried out by (1) attacks on motor vehicles using precision rifles, and (2) very long range sniping? The number is either zero or very close to it. Compare that number to the number carried out by improvised explosives manufactured from common household chemicals. You can make a much better case for banning household chemicals...

    And if you grant that a rifle that has never been used in a terrorist attack in this country (or in any murder, AFAIK) is somehow so "useful only to terrorists," what do you do when they come back next year to ban the .338 Lapua on the same grounds?

    The prohibitionist group that invented the .50 caliber hysteria, the Violence Policy Center, advocates for the banning of ALL "sniper rifles" on its web site, including those chambered for the .30 calibers. Not to mention all handguns, all nonhunting-style rifles and shotguns, all long guns with protruding handgrips, etc. etc. etc.

    In 1934? I think you're misremembering here. Machine guns and all other automatic weapons are restricted under the Title 2/Class III provisions of the National Firearms Act of 1934.

    If you're thinking of the AWB, the AWB was the ruin of the gun prohibitionist movement on the national stage. Had we not fought that particular bait-and-switch, we'd be suffering under a nationwide ban on modern-looking rifle stocks and over-10-round pistols and rifles, AND the anti-gun lobby would be looking to consolidate and expand their victories. Instead, we fought it, we kicked a lot of the anti-gun zealots out of Congress over it, and the prohibitionist lobby is reeling.

    Giving the prohibitionists what they want today does not keep them from getting what they want tomorrow.

    Define "valid issues."

    The current modus operandi of almost the entire gun prohibitionist movement is to LIE about the capabilities of this or that civilian firearm, via massive exaggeration or outright fabrication. Pick a gun the average American isn't all that familiar with, and fabricate a scare story to try to get "that gun" and as many others as possible banned. You see it over and over.

    If we choose not to challenge their lies on the .50 issue (no, these rifles CANNOT penetrate a Bradley, they CANNOT shoot down a plane, they CANNOT be used to take out a target four miles away), what will you do when they make the SAME lies about the .338's? And the fast .30's?

    LAR-15 is not on your side. He prefaced the crosspost by pointing out that the list of lies was "BS."
     
  25. gc70

    gc70 Member

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    So you want to give up on the .50 BMG. How will you feel after that appeasement when Teddy Kennedy again hauls out his proposal to ban that vicious, armor-piercing terrorist tool called the 30-30?
     
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