More Muzzloader questions

[peterk1234]

Have owned my muzzleloader since last Sunday, have yet to take a shot. Doing a lot reading about loads and cleaning. So here are the things I believe I have learned, but I still have a number of things I still do not understand.

A bullet with the right sabot is much favored over powerbelt style bullets;
Loose powder is preferred over pellets for those that want to control their load and accuracy;
Crushed ribbed sabots are very popular;
Blackhorn 209 is worth the cost because it just that clean when compared to 777/pyrodex, etc.;
Buy bullets and sabots separately - much cheaper;
Lead cast bullets (long colt 45) are a cheap alternative for plinking.

Here are the questions:

Do you guys agree with the above?

Do I need to experiment with sabots, or just match it muzzleloader caliber and bullet caliber?
How do sabot/bullet combo work? In my pistols I want a bullet that i larger than my barrel, but I am doing the opposite here. So, is the sabot the only thing engaging the rifling and does it stay intact until exit? Is there any expansion in the bullet while travelling through the chamber? Should that sabot be really tight? I purchase some xtp/240 grain (.452) and 50 caliber crushed rib sabots (black) for 45 caliber bullets.

Could I hunt with a solid lead cast bullet, or do I need the hollow point for more trauma? Some people seem to prefer a pass through so there is a better blood trail, others want the bullet to bounce around and tear things up. I am a bowhunter, so hunting with a bullet is new to me. I only shoot steel and cardboard IDPA targets. I go for pass through on the carboard

I cannot chrono my loads. When I reload my pistol I typically go for the lowest charge that gives me the best accuracy. I want to do the same here but I need to be sure that it is still effective for hunting deer. I am in pretty thick woods, so I will never shoot 100 yards, most will be less then 50 yards. I was going to start at 80 grains of Blackhorn and work up from there as needed.

Is there a good place to buy sabots in larger quantities, hopefully making it more cost effective?

I am sure I forgot some things, so be prepared for more questions. I am really looking forward to getting comfortable with my gun and playing around with the loads.


Pete

 

[Armored farmer]

Tell what specific rifle you have, and we'll go from there.
The type of projectile will depend on the twist rate of the barrel.

 

[peterk1234]

CVA optima V2 1:28 twist.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Your a bow hunter so you already know about shot placement.
Front loaders are like any other rifle, you need to find a load that it likes. If you can't get 2 inch groups at 100 yards with 80 to 100 grains of powder changes bullets and or sabots. The sabot/bullet should be tight in the bore but not too difficult to load. You may need to swab the bore between shots, foil packed alcohol swabs are great for this.
The sabot will be the limiting factor to the velocity, to much and it won't take the rifling. You will know if you are there because of the diminished accuracy.
In my experience all BP substitutes are dirty, some are just dirtier, so use whatever shoots well.
Cast bullets would work fine if they shoot well and you put them in the right spot, I have taken many deer with round balls.

 

[Axis II]

I have the same rifle and after much reading and questions on modernmuzzleloader.com i switched to bulk bullets and sabots and blackhorn 209. You need to buy the loose powder/blackhorn breech plug for your rifle though. I got mine on amazon for $24 and added some cheap batteries for free shipping. I tried 777 in the optima and hated having to brush out the crud ring every 2 shots. It took a 15-20min sight in session to over an hour. I have some old pellets ill get the gun on paper and then finish it up with blackhorn.

From muzzleloader.com for the optima i have been told to buy .452 300gr Hornady xtp for use with blackhorn or loose 777. I have also been told do not use slick glide or crush rib sabots in the cva as they are too loose.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

A bullet with the right sabot is much favored over powerbelt style bullets;
In some rifles YES, but in others, no. For example in mine it's patched round ball or nothing. Your rifle is recommended to use power belts, BUT there is still the question ..., is that more a business recommendation by the manufacturer, or true for the designs of sabots and power-belts when the rifle was introduced to the market? Only test firing will answer you.
Loose powder is preferred over pellets for those that want to control their load and accuracy;
Again, for some folks this is true, and it will depend on what you find works best in your rifle. Some guys even with inlines are going back to actual black powder. Granulated powder does give you the option of fine tuning your load, whether you use black powder or a granulated substitute for BP.
Crushed ribbed sabots are very popular;
Ignore "popular" and search for what works most accurate for your rifle.
Blackhorn 209 is worth the cost because it just that clean when compared to 777/pyrodex, etc.;
In my personal opinion, the only time I've had any issue with cleaning BP residue was when firing more than 30 blanks in about a two hour period at a history demonstration at an historic site. Swabbing the bore between shots at the range when sighting in is not a chore, and when hunting you're going to shoot one shot and your deer should be down. How dirty will the thing be? Buy what you can most reliably obtain where you live, and learn to use that. If you want a super clean rifle, you don't want a muzzle loader.
Buy bullets and sabots separately - much cheaper;
They might be. It's cheaper to shoot a sabot with an all lead bullet. It's usually better to shoot a bullet and sabot that are sold together, rather than buying sabots and finding a bullet that fits them. Of course, you need to try this in your rifle. (Kind creating a theme here, eh? )
Lead cast bullets (long colt 45) are a cheap alternative for plinking.
What does your rifle manual say? Because probably not. The .45 Colt bullet is hard lead alloy meant to be forced onto the rifling lands, so they cut into the slug and cause it to spin. That same bullet in a muzzle loader has to be soft to expand from the powder explosion, and thus grab onto the lands and grooves within the barrel. The lands and grooves on your barrel then need to be deep enough to get a good hold AND your bullet needs to be soft enough to expand....so you probably have to go to a proper all lead muzzle loader projectile for "plinking" or at least use pure lead and cast your own .45 Colt bullets (and lube them) for the muzzle loader.

Do I need to experiment with sabots, or just match it muzzleloader caliber and bullet caliber?
See all of the above
How do sabot/bullet combo work? In my pistols I want a bullet that i larger than my barrel, but I am doing the opposite here. So, is the sabot the only thing engaging the rifling and does it stay intact until exit? Is there any expansion in the bullet while travelling through the chamber? Should that sabot be really tight? I purchase some xtp/240 grain (.452) and 50 caliber crushed rib sabots (black) for 45 caliber bullets.
The original design, what I use, is a round ball, that is smaller than the bore. I then wrap it with a piece of cloth or leather (called a "patch"), which acts as a gasket for the powder gases, AND snugs up the fit, so that the spin from the rifling will spin the ball as it moves down the barrel, and thus stabilizes it in flight. You're right about your pistols, and all that the sabot is doing is since your bullet isn't a sphere as is mine, the sabot acts just like my "patch" and snugs up the bullet to the rifling so the spin gets imparted to your bullet when you fire it.

Could I hunt with a solid lead cast bullet, or do I need the hollow point for more trauma? Some people seem to prefer a pass through so there is a better blood trail, others want the bullet to bounce around and tear things up. I am a bowhunter, so hunting with a bullet is new to me. I only shoot steel and cardboard IDPA targets. I go for pass through on the carboard

You can use either a solid lead bullet like the guys using conicals or round balls and traditional muzzle loaders, or you can use hollow points like some traditional guys, and some of the sabot shooters. The hollow points my do a bit more damage. Muzzle loader projectiles don't "bounce around" within the animal. In fact you want a nice straight path from point of impact into the vital organs which are you intended target in the deer. IF you decide on using bullets with copper jackets or all copper (like the poor bastards in California) you will need a pretty fast moving bullet, so a large powder load. I prefer shooting through the deer, and taking out both lungs. Other guys love a shoulder shot that transfers trauma to the spine.

I cannot chrono my loads. When I reload my pistol I typically go for the lowest charge that gives me the best accuracy. I want to do the same here but I need to be sure that it is still effective for hunting deer. I am in pretty thick woods, so I will never shoot 100 yards, most will be less then 50 yards. I was going to start at 80 grains of Blackhorn and work up from there as needed.

I can shoot through a large whitetail doe at 110 yards with a 225 grain lead ball and 70 grains of 3Fg black powder (pistol granulation). A load of 70-95 grains with a 200-240 grain bullet will hammer the deer at 100 yards or less from your rifle....assuming it's accurate.

OH and most inlines have crude iron sights from the fatory. Be sure you get a serviceable scope or good, after market, iron sights.

LD

 

[rodwha]

He would be using those cheap .45 Colt bullets in a sabot so the alloy would be irrelevant with the sabot grabbing the rifling.

A wide meplat lead bullet will create a nice large wound track. Expansion isn't necessary, especially with a fairly large diameter. This is what Elmer Keith created long ago and something I put into the design of my cap n ball pistol bullets. There's a fellow who goes by Kaido who had Lee modify their 255 grn .45 Colt bullet for cap n ball guns. A 240 grn version traveling about 850-900 fps went nose to tail through an adult hog.

 

[peterk1234]

As always, thank you for the great answers. Now I need to read them a few more times. It will be fun experimenting for sure.

 

[peterk1234]

Time for an update.

Shot again yesterday. This time I set up at 75 yards. First shot of the day missed the 7 inch target. The rest were grouping about 2 inches apart. Not happy with the results yet but getting better. The first shot is a bit of a mystery, and I need to see if having a totally clean gun is the issue. I fired off two primers beforehand, but it did not help.

The gun was much less gunked this time around. Not sure if it because I have several shots down the barrel, or if my change in cleaning strategy helped. I cleaned after each shot, but only used spit on the patch. After shot number four, I would use my Windex blend, then dry. I could feel that the ring forming near the breech was only a fraction of the day before. Same powder, same bullet.

I also used a smooth Harvester sabot, instead of the ribbed ones for a few shots. Consistent grouping but it shot lower than the ribbed version. Guess I will stick with the ribbed for now and focus on resolving my first shot flyer problem.

All in all a hell of a lot of fun trying to figure things out. I can't imagine how folks just buy one of these, throw in two pellets and a saboted round, then boom, three shots at 100 yards all in a 1 inch ring. I'm just not that lucky, but I will get there. Pete

 

[birdshot8's]

For accuracy don't discount the power belts. I have the same rifle and it is very accurate shooting the green power belts. Cost about 3 times more than the economy sabots that I normally shoot. My rifle has a 3x9 and the power belts will easily shoot within two inches for 3 shots from clean barrel. I have never killed anything with the power belts so all I can talk about is on paper results.

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

you're wasting money firing caps /primers before hand
if you see daylight through the nipple the bore and nipple are clean
did you oil the bore when you cleaned it?
Most people use way too much oil
I cut cleaning patches from an old flannel shirt I put 2 - 3 drops of any gun oil on them
then run up and down the barrel. you only need /want a very fine oily film
If you are loading and shooting immediately you don't even need to swab the barrel
but for piece of mind run a alcohol patch down the barrel then a dry one.
lots cheaper than wasting a cap
I have a traditional CVA mountain rifle in 50cal been doing it that way since 1978 haven't had a hang or misfire ever.
On a traditional you can't see light coming through the nipple like an inline, so just blow through the nipple
if no obstruction you're pretty much good to go.
Rubbing alcohol evaporates pretty quickly
Use a small squeeze bottle with a capable spout get them in veterinary supply stores and farm and ranch stores

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

you're wasting money firing caps /primers before hand

Ten or fifteen cents worth of primers doesn't impact my lifestyle much.

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

just using one source 2 primers would be about $. 75
regardless of the cost,waste is waste.
I don't believe in waste period
And others may not be as fortunate as you in being able to waste components.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

3 to 6 cents each

 

[rodwha]

I don't care for waste either regardless what it is. And there have been times when I couldn't find percussion caps online so, to me, these are sacred.

Like DD4 I use rubbing alcohol to ensure the barrel is dry after I swab it. No matter who is elected I can get that quite cheap and anywhere unlike caps (or powder).

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

3 to 6 cents each

for what percussion caps or primers what kind what brand?
I searched on line forget where now but a box 100 CCI large rifle primers was $34.99
that doesn't include postage or sales tax but could of been a misprint on the site
So I went to Walmart cci muzzle loading 209 primers were on sale for $5 comes out $. 05 each
but regardless it's still waste.
Which begs another question do you pick those wasted caps up and dispose of properly or just leave them lay?
dropped used cap while hunting is one thing but not just clearing your rifle
besides around here I was taught you don't fire a round or primer etc, in your hunt area unless it is to shoot the animal. No sense spooking them worse than they are

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

I will sell you as many CCI large rifle primers you want for $20 per hundred.

I leave the "wasted" caps where ever they lay. I don't pick up the bullets I shoot, about 200 per week give or take.
I shoot pheasants and clay targets with lead shot and never pick up any of it or the plastic wads. Since one of my best hunting areas is right in front of my house a lot of rounds get fired here. There is rarely a day that I don't see birds and animals within 100 yards of my house.
When the winter gets harsh deer and pheasant hang out in my yard because I put out corn and grit.
Last spring I seeded 20 acres with oats and clover. I seeded another 4 acres with turnips for winter forage. I collected walnuts and acorns and planted 5 or 6 acres in trees.
Next spring and fall I will do more.
Perhaps someday, if I keep trying, I will be as great a steward of the environment as you.

 

[wild willy]

Shooting Blackhorn209 and sabots is not the same as shooting black powder and full diameter bullets or patched balls.The primers are fired to foul the bore not clear the nipple.First shot fliers are a known problem in some guns with Blackhorn and sabots.A good source for information is Modermuzzleloading.com

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Shooting Blackhorn209 and sabots is not the same as shooting black powder and full diameter bullets or patched balls.The primers are fired to foul the bore not clear the nipple.First shot fliers are a known problem in some guns with Blackhorn and sabots.A good source for information is Modermuzzleloading.com

Almost all my rifles have a different POI's with clean or fouled bores.

 

[wild willy]

So do mine but but by swabbing between shots and making sure I get as much oil out as I can before the first shot I can minimize it.None of my flints or percussion guns are as far out as my one rifle using Blackhorn if I don’t clean the oil and fire several fouling primers. The Gun that does it is new to me so I’m working on it.My other Gun that I use Blackhorn doesn’t do it. I think some of it is sabot bore fit I’m going to try different sabots.

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

maybe to foul the bore, but a cap won't produce enough by product to really foul the bore since the mixture is designed to be be noncorrosive or fouling
for years the primary reason to waste a cap was to make sure the nipple, drum, bore was clear of any obstruction
you won't sell me any primers at any price. Don't use them I only use percussion caps.
Don't have an inline don't want one either My traditional side lock has served mt well for 39 yr no need to change
Have never used sabots and never will to me just another overpriced gimmick and more plastic left lying in the woods.
A sabot lets you shoot an undersized slug supposedly at a higher velocity, because it weighs less and the plastic sabot has less friction, if true that could be a reason your inline is throwing rounds. try two things drop your powder charge down a bit and see what happens
or try a proper fitting pure lead conical without the sabot tell us what happens with a 1:28 twist I think you said you will want a conical and not round ball. also do not use a patch, lube the bullet grooves
If you don't have any I have some I let you use Mine are 50 cal and I might have some 54 left

 

[peterk1234]

Time for an update.

Installed the Blackhorn breech plug in my CVA. Used 80 grains by volume of Blackhorn 209, 250 gr XTP and black rib sabot. Fifty yards; first shot almost dead on, only about a half inch right. Four more shots, all holes touching. No cleaning between any of the shots.

Spit on a patch and ran it down the bore, then dry patch. Out to 100 yards. A little further right, about an inch or so. So it was time to adjust the scope. I am very close to bullseye at this juncture, shooting one inch or so groups. Probably will try to tweak a bit more today at the range but the results were really consistent. I am sure there is some user error built into the equation.

Went to 75 yards, sitting on the ground and bracing with my knees. Bullseye.

BH209, and the breechplug were a definite game changer, in a very big way. First shot flew the same as the fifth shot.

I am going to order some red ribbed sabots as well, which will be tighter down the bore. I am curious to see if it helps or makes no difference. Anyone else experiment between black and red ribbed sabots in their gun? Preferrably a CVA? Pete

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

You've done well, I'd stay with that load. One MOA is more than adequate and all that can be expected from what you are using.

 

[peterk1234]

Another update. Shot 85 grains today. Also a couple clicks on the scope. The additional five grains seemed to tighten things up. I did have to run a spit patch through on each shot for the result but here is where I ended....... two shots at 100 yards, rested. I love tinkering with this thing; just like playing with reloads. At fifty yards, a bullseye is given while rested and while sitting and bracing with my knees. My goal is to get it in the middle of the red dot at 100. Almost there.

 

[rdstrain49]

Just scanning your posts, it seems to me that you are changing several things at each outing. Regardless of what you are shooting, when striving for accuracy one thing remains true whether you are talking front loaders, .556mm auto loader, 45 colt revolver, it matters not. Change one thing and one thing only at a time. When you introduce more than one variable you really don't know what you are doing to change the results. It may be old school but it works.

While I'm at it, since you are using loose powder, why not try some Swiss black powder. More energy and easier clean up than a lot of synthetic powders. Smells a whole lot better too.