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Mosin 91/30

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by OARNGESI, Jul 8, 2018.

  1. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    They are worth this much? EEK!. I can't afford to replace any of my Finnish Nagants. I glass bedded a like new Finnish M24 with a mint 1927 Tikkakoski barrel. At the time it cost me $53.50 and I wanted to see if bedding the action in the stock would improve accuracy. It did change point of impact and make the groups rounder, but I was shooting ball ammunition so the group size was about the same. Now I am wonder if I ruined the collector value.

    This was fun to shoot: Short barreled Soviet Nagant produced fireballs and a huge noise when fired!

    7zSuPBG.jpg
     
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  2. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    Don't worry. By today's standards you only dropped the value on your Finn M24 by about $200 to $400. But when it comes to the Purest Collector, you ruined all collector value and it would now be worthless. A clean M24, also known as the "Lotta Rifle" list for right at $1000 these days. Approximately 8000 were manufactured for the Finnish Civil Guard.
    But you know that a Nagant is a revolver. Mosin is short for a Mosin Nagant rifle. We don't want new collectors to get confused.
    I have a little over 50 Mosins, maybe more then 60, haven't counted them in a while. Ten of them are M91's, one is a M24. three are M91 Dragoons, three M39's and a M27. The rest are 91/30's except for the 17 or so carbines.
    Mosins were fun to collect just a few years ago, now the prices have gotten so high for just a plain run of the mill refurbished 91/30 that it just isn't funny.
    But like I said before, The market is about at it's peak. Soon sellers will find that they can't move their Mosins and will have to drop their prices to move them. I believe that once things settle down Mosins will be in the $150 to $200 range for the standard 91/30.
    Anyone that has a Mosin that is still in military and thinking about selling, now is the time.
     
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  3. SamT1

    SamT1 Member

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    I’d do it if it came with 4 spam cans full of ammo.
     
  4. boom boom
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    boom boom Contributing Member

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    Tikka barrels themselves of that vintage are pretty rare. My swag best guess is that the barrel alone might get 300-400 from a desperate restorer even now from someone with a trashed m24 barrel. I don't really swim at the deep end of the collector pool because I like to shoot mine but I follow auctions on parts and rifles and ultimately parts prices are driving the upward movement of average grade milsurps of shooter quality. The reason that the lightly sportered milsurps are disappearing from the market is that they are being broken up for parts. One sign of this are cheap receivers being marketed on gunbroker where the rest of the rifle has been sold for parts.

    As Gunny says above, I suspect that the Mosin market will settle down a bit and some will sell as the cheap surplus ammo for these from mass retailers is about gone. Blaster ammo costs also seem to drive some of the milsurp market prices. Odd expensive ammo tends to reduce the price that people will pay for a shooter grade rifle. Arisakas have been a decent buy for years along with Carcanos, Steyr Mannlichers, and really the various Enfield .303's, in part because really cheap milsurp ammo has disappeared for them. US arms have readily available ammo plus the nostalgia/grandpa/war history factors keeping their prices higher.
     
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  5. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    I will have to take pictures of the thing to brag about it. But, if it is worth at the bottom end, $500 to $600, then I bought something that has increased in value 100 times. Not bad.

    I don't understand the "Purest" types, I want to shoot my guns, I want them to be functionally perfect and as accurate as they can be. I mean, why own a rifle that you won't shoot?. They make heavy paperweights. There are only a couple of military rifles I own that I have not zero'd at the range, added taller front sights if need be, adjusted the triggers to a clean pull.

    This is one: A "Z" marked M1903A4.

    EoNxSfx.jpg

    Shooting it would be pointless, though, it is not like I don't understand what a M1903A3/A4 barrel will do. I have the mounts and a late model scope, so, I might shoot it. If I do, I will have to bed the action as the bedding is shot.

    IZ8B1Z1.jpg

    I have a M1D in the original CMP wrap and all the accessories in the wrap, plus the CMP box. I have shot original M1D's, was not impressed with the accuracy, so I decided to leave mine in the wrap. Someone will be happy with it, as a paperweight.

    I am such a vandal. I hope the Purest Collector's cry at my estate sale. It would tickle me pink to see their reaction to all the bedded, altered military rifles I have, and the profit they lost, by me shooting my rifles.

    Says you. Until it is made law, and it is enforced by the state, I can and will call a Mosin Nagant a "Nagant", "Nagant rifle", a "Mosin", "Mosin rifle",or a Mosin Nagant, depending on how I feel. Ain't freedom wonderful?
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
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  6. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    As someone once said, It is hard to predict, especially the future. There are several circumstances that will drive down the price of old military surplus firearms. If the Federal Government, or State Governments pass confiscation legislation, firearms will be worth what the state compensates the owner, and that might be nothing. I understand Australia compensated owners almost nothing for the value of the semi automatic firearms that the State required to be turned in for destruction.

    If the supply of old military firearms increase due to importation, then prices will take a drop. That happened to me, I found a private sale K31 at a Gun Show, K31's were rare, and I paid $350.00 for the thing. Barely a couple years later, K31's came in with the tide. And it was a King Tide at that. A bud bought a couple of scratch and dent K31's for $75.00 each. I was able to buy a few more at a reason price for each. However, the supply has dried up. But, what I have seen over my lifetime, if supply is not increased, but demand remains constant, the price of these old rifles will continue to increase. At what rate, to what price point, I don't know.

    Get one while you can:

    WzHtRZt.jpg

    L0pUzCw.jpg
     
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  7. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    Freedom is wonderful. That’s one of the reasons most of us own guns. And some people call soccer football. ;)
    I am a bit of a purist when it comes to collecting milsurps. I like mine as original as possible. I also like to shoot my guns. My favorite Mosin to shoot is a 1916 Remington M91 that’s Finn marked and in a Finn stock that has never been refinished. The rivets on the handguard still have the bumps.
    I also have a German kkw 22 trainer that has never been refinished and still has its original cleaning rod. It’s pure joy to shoot.
    I am not one that try’s to tell others what to do with their guns. But I do recommend that before someone alters an old gun, to do some homework to make sure that they don’t have something worth a lot of money.
    I had a friend that wanted a hunting rifle but didn’t have the money to buy one. He had a Mauser that his grandfather brought back from the war and was going to use it to make a homemade sporter. He asked me about having it drilled and taped. When I saw what he had I contacted a friend that was a German Mauser Collector. My Collector friend ended up buying the rifle and my other friend was able to buy a new Browning A Bolt, Leupold scope and had money left over.
    But in the end I tell people that it’s their gun and they should do as they please.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
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  8. fpgt72

    fpgt72 Member

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    +1

    It kills me to see all the bubba that has been done to them because they are just $70 guns.....well yea it is a mosin, but that Czarist flavor that has not been cut down to the 1930 length and is still marked in arshins is worth a tad more.

    It is the same ole same old, my G43 was sportered back in the 50's.....same with the FIL's Krag....it has always happened it always will.

    As to if an influx comes in the prices will drop....not so sure, lets look at the market on those korean guns that are coming in....people run to the CMP buy for a couple hundred and then sell at gun shows for a couple grand.
     
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  9. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Glock had proptotypes way back then? ;)
     
  10. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Rebarrel that Mauser, 1917 Enfield, or Springfield.

    OcEndZp.jpg

    Who wants a G43 in 8mm Mauser when you can have one in 30-06?

    fJuyGHK.jpg
     
  11. SamT1

    SamT1 Member

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    I’ve got a bubba mosin and I don’t regret it one bit. You know why? Time value of money.

    Guns are a bad investment in general. And I know I’ll take heat for that, but hear me out.
    So I bought a mosin m44 in 2004 for $85 plus tax so $92 out the door. If I would have put $92 in a mutual fund at 10% most likely I’d have $349 in that account or more.

    So you bought a $125 91/30 in 2004, that mutual fund would be $475

    Oh yea what about those lucky men who bought colt pythons in 1975 for $75? $4518

    In general it takes too long for firearms to appreciate. Barring something like another Obama. Even then panic has little effect on collector items, and may even be negative for them.

    I’m not saying don’t collect, but collecting and justifying it as an investment only works on people who don’t do the math or know their options for money. Collecting firearms is a lot more fun than putting money in a 401k, but probably not smart for retirement unless your contributing a super high percentage.

    Don’t forget those guys who wish they had bought an extra 1968 mopar or whatever and put it in the barn. I hear that one all the time. If they invested that cash in 68 they could by 2 or 3 out of someone’s barn.
     
  12. fpgt72

    fpgt72 Member

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    interesting way to defend your position...too bad it does not hold water.

    "collector" guns are always going to be worth money, will always go up in value....knew a guy that "invested" in lever winchester rifles....seems when the market went south all his friends lost tons...he was just fine....in fact during those years...obummer years his rifles went up in value quite a bit and really have not come back down. he is a lawyer however so he is a blood sucker.
     
  13. SamT1

    SamT1 Member

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    If a guy owned enough Winchester’s to fund a retirement fund he would need a room size vault. Probably a house size one if your a doctor. You’d likely spend what they appreciate in insurance, maintenance and storage cost, because we all know what happens to their value if you get a ding, dry crack, or a spec of rust. I’d bet any collector Winchester’s bought in the last 20 years have barely beat inflation assuming proper storage, not being shot or fondled, and you didn’t screw up buying. A fire in your home even if they are inside a safe would likely damage them enough to destroy the value.
    The thing about the market is you haven’t lost that money until you sell out, if you rode out the Obama depression your sitting pretty today. I used to buy a gun a month to compliment my retirement. I quit and sold them when it became clear how I was doing vs the money man.

    If a guy wants to collect it’s not a bad deal if your in it for fun and the love of your collection. I’d bet it slightly outperforms a guaranteed fund but umm it’s more fun to a point.
     
  14. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    I didn't see the posts about using guns to fund retirement (not in this thread, at least.) I also don't know anyone who is comparing "enough Winchesters to fund a retirement" to dropping $92 once in a while in a mutual fund paying ten percent. I think it's more about enjoying the ownership of something while secure in the confidence that, if you decide later you'd rather have your money back for something else, you'll probably get it.

    I lost a lot from my RAs during the crunch, some of which was in MFs. I didn't lose a dime on my Mosin, which was certainly not purchased to "fund a retirement" plan.

    Seriously, we all buy a lot of things to enjoy their ownership, quite a bit of which will be relatively worthless in short order. For those on this forum, it's great that guns don't have to be among them. After all, it's a gun forum here, not a financial-planning one. ;)

    Guns, especially used guns, are not a "bad investment." They may not be a "good" one, but the right ones are not "bad" ones.

    SamT1 writes:

    I agree that that was not a good "financial-planning" practice. But it would still be fun if you looked at it as a hobby instead. Thoughtfully selected, you could have been buying, selling, and trading, just to enjoy the different guns, without losing anything. Pretty much what you said in your last line now that I re-read it. :)
     
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  15. entropy

    entropy Member

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    The only one of those guns your mutual fund (If it survived 2008) surpasses is the 91/30, and that would be a '42 Ishevsk. Many 91/30's exceed that. M44's go for @ $400.

    Apparently you haven't priced Pythons, either. Your right around the average there. The snub I should never have sold goes for around $6000. And you can enjoy your investment the whole time it is appreciating. I suspect most of us don't plan on retiring on our Mosin collections, except maybe Gunny. ;)
     
  16. dh1633pm

    dh1633pm Member

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    Got my M39 in 1986 for $29.00. I couldn't afford the $10 extra for the hand select. Still have that rifle. Won't part with it for anything. Then I got an unissued Hungarian M44 for $100 at a gunshow in Syracuse NY in the 90's. I mod'd the rifle, but didn't do anything permanent. Like changing out the trigger for an M39 trigger. Stuff like that. The M39 is still a go to rifle. I know it well.
     
  17. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    I don’t think I’ll ever make money on my collection. My three kids are already laying claim on guns. My oldest son has a pretty good list, but has said that he also wants anything else the the other two don’t want. Hopefully I’ll get a chance to sell one or two.
     
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  18. MosinT53Hunter

    MosinT53Hunter Member

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    I have had probably six mosin nagants through my life time thus far, and only have the one left to show for it, but I will never get rid of it. Bought my T53 for the grand total of $145 about 8 years back, and never looked back. Course, I had been looking for one like it for a very very long time, ever since I was a kid and read a great article in the 1993 Gun Digest "Shooting China's New Gang of Four". Ever since then I had been on the search for the elusive Chinese T53, and I couldn't be happier.
     
  19. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    I have two Type 53’s with all matching numbers. I paid $100 for each of them.
     
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  20. BSA1

    BSA1 member

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    Timely post for me.

    A co-worker has been questioning why I am building my AR's when it is cheaper to buy a factory model. He doesn't see the point in spending extra money for a custom build when a basic factory gun gives me the same accuracy.

    So yesterday at work we start discussing why I like building my own AR's and the conversation eventually turns to bolt action rifles. He allows that he loves bolt action rifles and customizing them. One of them he told me about is a MN Tula 91/30 that he has had the barrel cut down to 22" along with some other work buy a gunsmith, restocked and has a scope added. He said that with Herters factory ammo his custom 91/30 gives him 2" groups at 100 yards so it does make nice deer rifle.

    Then he finally admits he has $500.00 tied up in a gun that cost $100.00 to begin with and wishes he had kept it in stock condition.

    I had a MN 91/30 and a M44 once that the same time. A co-worker wanted a M44 for hunting so I sold him mine for $100.00. I kick myself for selling it but who would have thought that these old Ruskie guns in a odd ball caliber would become popular?
     
  21. boom boom
    • Contributing Member

    boom boom Contributing Member

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    Most long term guides for a balanced portfolio give about 7-8 percent nominal return with the average inflation of about 3 percent or so. Thus, a real return of about 4 percent. A balanced portfolio does not contain just stocks as there have been decades where stock performance was essentially flat so inclusion of bonds, real estate, t-bonds, etc. brings down the SP 500 historical of about 10 percent growth (depending on arithmetic or geometric means) from 1926-2014 or so.

    Collectible assets such as firearm collections or art tend to do better when tax rates and inflation are relatively high and thus are countercyclical to most stock prices. Stocks tend to do better with lower tax rates and lower inflation (assuming that the Fed maintains target rates on inflation and raises interest rates in accordance). For true retirement purposes, a balanced portfolio guards one's wealth better than an unbalanced one and rebalancing is necessary because at any period in time, one of the asset classes may get hammered. One's risk tolerance also plays a part along with projected work life. Holding gold and/or silver has been criticized as well as firearms. But, these can serve a purpose in lowering the expected risk as a part of an investment portfolio.

    If one could predict the future, investment is easy. If one has funds that are not necessary, then speculation on high risk/high gain scenarios are possible. But, most people are best off with a balanced retirement portfolio that is diversified and rebalanced as one gets older. Things that take on more market risk are best reduced as a percent of portfolio as one ages. Thus, if you are young, investing a portion in firearms can be an effective hedging strategy--just keep records on cost basis etc. If one is old, then paying top current dollar for a collectible firearm is not viable as a retirement investment strategy.

    Speculating about firearms bans affecting the collectibles market is about as valuable as speculating about general government seizure of assets such as retirement plans, etc. as the answer is we do not know what is in store. Anything is technically possible in the future but even the best crystal balls tend to cloud up past two to three years. Reliance on historical returns and inflation for asset returns is simply one way to reduce uncertainty in investing but Taleb's black swan events indicate such things as revolutions, impeachments, wars, world-wide depressions, meteor strikes, real estate markets crashing, etc. simply cannot be predicted reliably as these are relatively rare events.

    In sum, you can make some returns on collecting but the usual applies--buy low, sell high, do not get emotionally involved in your decisions, be informed about the market, eg. treat it just like any other investment decision.

    However, as a niche, the advantage of firearms is that you can actually use them and have possession of them.
     
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  22. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Sounds like my two boys.:)
     
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  23. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Those of us who saw the same thing happen with Springfields, Mausers, and Enfields.
     
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  24. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    I veiw buying firearms as akin to putting money in a savings account. You will never get rich off of it but your not likely to lose anything. Plus you get to shoot it. A very small percentage of guns will ever make stock market type of returns in the long run, but your not likely to lose out. With smart shopping you can also make some quick flips. If you spend money on golf clubs or a new boat or whatever that’s basically an expense you’ll never get back, but classic guns always appreciate a small amount and can readily be turned back into money.
     
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