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mosin v. mauser

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by cwdotson, Mar 29, 2007.

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  1. cwdotson

    cwdotson Member

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    Yes, I know the two have been contrasted & compared in this forum ad infinitum, BUT I am throwing something out that , I beleve, is a little different. WHY is the Mosin considered, from what I have seen, to be the toughest or whatever of the two? I know about surviving Siberian winters, dealing with peasant conscripts, etc., but how about specifics?

    1. Trigger group/mechanism: I have no ideas either way, but without these parts you have--a club!

    2. Barrel: Any barrel blows up from enough internal stress, and I guess either make would slap someone in the head without bending--any thoughts?

    3. Stock-whatever..both fairly tough wood?

    4. The receiver: Ok, gets a little more interesting, I think. Those Mosin hex receivers look like you could cram them with C-4...realistically, we could blow those up from the inside with enough, I guess, but anybody debate that at least some of the Mosins are redundantly durable? Of course, that inquiry might get a little complicated a couple of items down...

    5. Magazine assembly: Internal mags, need them to have a repeater versus a single-shot. I understand that some Mosins have an interruptor addressing the use of rimmed cartridges, so they don't improperly overlap each other--is this another piece that can go wrong?

    6. The bolt assembly: The Mosins just don't look as tough to me, and understand extractors tend to break--don't recall exactly where I heard/read this, but I did. It would appear that, properly executed, the Mauser control feed extractor would never be stressed forcing over a casing. The bolts do have individual compnents, so who wins overall here?

    7. The interaction between the bolt & receiver: This is where, to me, it gets fun. The 98 has a gas bleedoff system, the Mosin I don't think so AND the Mosin receiver may be practically impossible to blow, SO if something goes wrong, something gotta give, the bolt lets go? I know the 98 has the big 3 lugs, the Mosins I've looked at, two little wings? Point being, do we need to factor in what works best and most safely against what may have a tougher component or so? Would it matter to have the last standing barrel & receiver set in the field if the bolt gave up before the other, potentially less sturdy (in absolute terms) weapon?

    I have little Mosin experience, some with a Mauser, and my ignorance may show and may even annoy. I have been intrigued by the Mosin and if I get one would spring for a Finn, and, practically speaking, which one becomes a hand grenade first might be moot, BUT we keep reading about how indestructable the Mosin is, I wanted to see some breakdown as to how we define this nigh indestructability. Hoep someone has a little fun with this.
     
  2. ball3006

    ball3006 Member

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    The bolt handle on a Mosin Nagant...

    is a third lug.....chris3
     
  3. cwdotson

    cwdotson Member

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    Thanks, already learned something! Is it as strong as the 98 third lug? I have know bolt handles on some makes to shear. Is the 98 bolt handle considered a lug?
     
  4. Essex County

    Essex County Member

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    I have always considered the M-N a couple of steps above a sledge hammer. This is not a condemnation. It is simple and rugged. I bought My first one when I was fifteen ( 45 years ago ) and if I didn't admire then I wouldn't have a half dozen today. The Mauser is a more sophisticated weapon and has a number of refinements. I also own a number of them. As an Infantryman in WW 1 or 2 I wouldn't grumble about either. Essex
     
  5. DMK

    DMK Member

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    I've never had experience with it, but I've heard that the Mosin has poor gas checking. That a blown primer will blast right back into your face.

    Anybody had experience with this?
     
  6. Spiggy

    Spiggy Member

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    I have; if that happens though, the bolt tends to lock itself

    Much worse through an enfield when the striker ejects back, hits you in the thumb and resets itself :what:
     
  7. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

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    As for facing cold weather.. the Soviets mixed gun oil with kerosene or deisel to make it less sticky in extreme temps. The Germans didn't learn this trick.

    The rimmed cartridges of the 54R is a training thing... both can be loaded fast.

    Anyone who claims a Mauser extractor is 'weak' has been using the bolt face to pull rusty nails out of a barn. :scrutiny: (this was suggested by the author who wrote War of The Rats when comparing the rifles)

    As for the MN being 'crude.'I'd say there is definitle a 'simplicity of manufacture' that allows them to be made just about anywhere with less labor, but it's a big step above the stone axe.

    Face to face I'd call the M44 Carbine and the K98k pretty equal. There were a lot more factors that won the war for the Eastern Front.
     
  8. JesseL

    JesseL Member

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    The Mosin should have a little better case support (it has to, due to headspacing on the rim) than the original Mauser 98. Some later large ring Mausers had a fully enclosed case head thanks to some changes to the bolt face, internal ring, and an extra extractor cut in the barrel.
     
  9. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    --I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the Mosin '91 is considered tougher than the Mauser '98. I would say they are on par with each other. Both have three lugs and both are overengineered with massive receivers and plenty of steel.

    Actually, you'd have a spear. Either with a Mosin or Mauser.

    Yes, though in both cases the wood quality dropped off as more and more of the great European hardwood forests fell. Eventually the Soviets went to laminated. The Finns used two piece stocks to utlize otherwise undersized bits of birch.

    Rimlock is always a possibility, though with fairly new magazine springs and interruptor/ejector it doesn't crop up much. It happens more often with very worn parts and when rounds are loaded improperly. The Mausers don't have this problem (other than maybe the Siamese models), but they also don't have the advantage of rimmed rounds. Rimed rounds can tolerate out-of-spec headspace better than unrimed beause even if there is excess area for the rim, the shoulder acts as a backup and brass tears are very rare. I've had far more problems with headspacing in Mausers than Mosins.

    Mosins in general have looser tolerances than Mausers. The bolts are looser, the headspace less exact, and the throats notoriously generous. This is one reason they've earned a reputation for doing well in rough, cold environments. But military Mausers aren't exactly poor performers, either. I wouldn't count them out at all. They've served well in all environments.

    You heard wrong. I've taken hammers to open up the bolt after shooting bad ammo and never busted an extractor. The rim will tear before that steel claw does.

    It certaily does. There's a groove in the bolt opposite the extractor. When locked in battery any escaping gas is directed through here and into the magazine. If any gets inside the bolt, the three-part assembly guarantees it will be blown out the gaps before getting to the eyeball. I've busted a lot of primers with both Mosins and Mausers. The gas is more likely to coat your safety glasses with Mausers. The three part assembly, plus the enormous chunk of steel that acts as a third lug, would make it virtually impossible for the bolt to become an arrow to the head. I know of no incident where it took place, even with the batch of M-91's from WWI that had badly out-of-spec oval chambers.

    Overall, I would (and have) put my face behind either a '98 or '91 Mosin, provided they were in generally good shape with good headspace. They are actually a lot stronger than most modern rifles.

    Well if you can get a Mosin bolt handle to shear off, you're the man. The difference is the Mosin is a split bridge, so the bolt handle locks inside the receiver itself. THe Mauser is not a split bridge, and the handle sits behind the receiver. The Mauser's third lug is a raised bit of steel along the side of the bolt. It's just a safety feature to keep the bolt from going through the eyeball in the highly unlikely event both locking lugs shear off.
     
  10. Hoppy590

    Hoppy590 Member

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    damn cosmoline beat me to it!
     
  11. nwilliams

    nwilliams Member

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    Mauser for me!

    I'm a Mauser guy, I have nothing against Mosin's I think they are great also, but I'll never be convinced that a Mosin is better than a K98 or any Mauser action for that matter. Its not worth fighting over which one is better, everyone has their own opinion, mine just happens to favor Mauser. Which is tougher? Again you'll find supporters on both sides with very convincing arguments to support their view. Personally I'd say the Mosin is probably tougher but I like the feel and the mechanics of the Mauser rifle more. JMHO
     
  12. jem375

    jem375 Member

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    I had 2 M/N at one time....a 91/30 which I gave away at the gun range, piece of crap, and my M44 which shoots ok but is at the bottom of the list of military bolts I have....find a Swede M96 somewhere and forget the MN...
     
  13. 270Win

    270Win Member

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    +1 to Cosmoline.
     
  14. EricTheBarbarian

    EricTheBarbarian Member

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    I like both rifles alot better than anything new I can afford. One thing I havent heard anyone mention is the sights. I like the stock sights on my mosin alot better than my mauser. The front sight post on my k98 seems too short while the mosin is taller and I even have that front sight hood.Theyre both a blast to shoot though.
     
  15. DWARREN123

    DWARREN123 Member

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    I like my Mauser M48A better than my M44 but both get out shot by my K-31.
     
  16. cwdotson

    cwdotson Member

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    anything else?

    Cosmoline, thanks to you and everybody else answering on this, although I didn't intend to pose said query as a "my favorite rifle" poll. Regarding extractors, I believe Koobuh stated, on an early thread of mine, that the Mosin extractors were "one of the parts prone to failure." That's were I got that. And, I may be reading between lines too much, but I have seen so many comments about the durability of the Mosin. For example, one respondent in the instant thread compares them (favorably) to a sledge hammer or such. Usually, such comments don't say something like "and so is the 98 Mauser." So, I reason (inductively, I admit) the Mauser is at least one rung below the Rooskie in Superman points. Again, perhaps faulty reading. No one had accused the venerable 98 of being a weak sister. But, the question remains, why is the Mosin a sledge hammer? Thanks again.

    Oh, yeah, I was totally ignorant of the gas system in the Mosin-thanks!
     
  17. rugerdude

    rugerdude Member

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    Well, I know the mosin makes a much better javelin.
     
  18. JesseL

    JesseL Member

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    I think a lot of the Mosin vs Mauser durability/strength perceptions come from the way they are viewed aesthetically.

    The Mauser is usually seen as a triumph of elegant engineering and fine craftsmanship.

    The Mosin is seen as a testament to simplicity and overbuilding.

    In reality either can withstand a great deal of abuse as a sledgehammer, tent pole, boat oar, and pry bar - but most of would feel worse about doing it to a Mauser.
     
  19. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    As noted, I think both the 98 and Mosin are extremely tough rifles. As to *why*, it's because they were designed that way. Both use massive steel receivers and strong lugs. Both used case hardened steel that offers both hardness and flexibility. Both were made by master craftsmen at the best arsenals in the world. There are arguably substandard examples of each (midwar Soviet 91/30's, beat up Turkish Mausers), but even these are strong. There's enough overengineering in the designs to make up for most flaws in constrution.
     
  20. rugerdude

    rugerdude Member

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    Oh yeah, all of the spartans in "300" were sporting mosins. Not mausers.
     
  21. cracked butt

    cracked butt Member

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    Safety- the mauser's safety beats the mosins hands down. The mosin's safety is perfectly fine, especially for me, but 99% of the population doesn't have the grip strength that I do, that goes double for poorly fed peasant conscripts.

    Another point favoring the mauser is that it doesn't have a split receiver bridge, making scope mounting a whole lot easier not to mention lighter in weight versus a side mount- it doesn't mean that the germans didn't use side rail mounts anyhow.

    Loading- the Mauser is much easier to load whether chargers are used or not. The mausers are a lot less prone to jamming for the same reason - rimless cartridges.

    Rough wartime finish? As far as I can tell, the roughly made wartime Mosins had more cosmetic flaws than functional flaws, whereas Mausers took a larger plunge in quality due to the war.

    Sights- I prefer the sights on the Mosins- the front post sight is much easier to focus on than the german inverted 'v' sight.

    3rd lug or lack of thereof- I've never seen or heard of an instance where a 3rd safety lug saved someone's noggin. I've seen many examples of kaboomed remington 700s, savages,pre- and post-98 mausers, and rugers- some with a 3rd lug and others without, and the 3rd lug never came into play

    Bayonet mounting- The russians sort of did it right with the M44, not saying i'm at all fond of the M44, but I've never been able to mount a 91/30 bayonet without the use of a hammer and a brass drift. The downside fo the M44 bayonet is the M44s don't always shoot right without the bayonet extended which sort of defeats the purpose of a carbine if you need to add a foot to its length to make it shoot right. Mauser bayonets mount very quickly and easily and can be sharpened to use as a knife.

    Empty magazine holdback- the bolt on a mauser will not cycle on an empty magazine, the mosin's will- another point in favor of the mauser.

    Damaged or broken magazine parts will pretty much take a mauser out of commision- they are difficult to feed single rounds to without a magazine- point in favor of the mosin.

    Trigger- the mausers trigegr if properly honed will yield a nice 2 stage trigger- if expertly honed will yield a superb trigger, with a mosin, the best you can hope for is to reduce the pull weight on a trigger that is creepy and has a lot of stacking before releasing.

    Balance- the 91/30 rifles balance perfectly for me (m44 carbines have terrible balance)- I love shooting these offhand. However, if I want to hit somethign with regular consistancy, I'll take a mauser every time.
     
  22. cracked butt

    cracked butt Member

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    I always thought that mosins were something an orc would use. Orc weapons are always crude, somewhat ugly, but very effective. Elf weapons are always beautiful, well made, and effective. An elf would use a M1 garand or AR-15, while an orc would use a Mosin or AK-47. The Mauser falls somewhere in between. :D
     
  23. kalashnikat

    kalashnikat Member

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    Comparing Mausers to Mosins...could be a new proverb!

    ...is like comparing a polished steel sculpture to a sledgehammer, or an airplane to a locomotive...both can kill you...but one is much prettier.

    If you're into Lord of the Rings stuff, Mausers are elvish, Mosins are the Orcish version.

    I've got a couple of each. My 1908 M96, very seldom if ever fired, Swede is more consistantly accurate than my wartime ('42) Mosin sniper replica, but they've led very different lives...

    Also, the Germans and some of the other nations that built mauser designs, typically had much better metallurgy than the Czarists and their Bolshevik successors...like surgical steel versus "barely could call it steel, produced by slave labor in hellish conditions while in fear of execution" steel.

    kalashnikat
     
  24. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    An essay on Mosin vs Mauser debate

    Let us commence a journey into the much travelled topic of Mosin vs Mauser debate. In depth analysis of Mosin vs Mauser debate can be an enriching experience. While much has been written on its influence on contemporary living, it is yet to receive proper recognition for laying the foundations of democracy. It is estimated that that Mosin vs Mauser debate is thought about eight times every day by the over 50, many of whom blame the influence of television. At the heart of the subject are a number of key factors. I plan to examine each of these factors in detail and and asses their importance.

    Social Factors

    There is cultural and institutional interdependence between members of any community. When Sir Bernard Chivilary said 'hounds will feast on society' [1] he created a monster which society has been attempting to tame ever since. While the western world use a knife and fork, the Chinese use chopsticks. Of course Mosin vs Mauser debate helps to provide some sort of equilibrium in this world of ever changing, always yearning chaos.

    Recent thought on Mosin vs Mauser debate has been a real eye-opener for society from young to old. Society says that every man must find their own truth. While one sees Mosin vs Mauser debate, another may see monkeys playing tennis.

    Economic Factors

    There has been a great deal of discussion in the world of economics, centred on the value of Mosin vs Mauser debate. We shall examine the Simple-Many-Pies model, which I hope will be familiar to most readers.
    Annual Military budget[​IMG]

    Mosin vs Mauser debate
    It is apparent from the graph that the influence of Mosin vs Mauser debate is strong. What is the secret to its strength? Recent studies indicate that the annual military budget has always depended upon Mosin vs Mauser debate to a certain extent, but now more that ever. In the light of this free trade must be examined.

    Political Factors

    Politics was once a game featuring competitors from elite classes. Comparing international relations since the end of the century can be like observing Mosin vs Mauser debateilisation, as it's become known, and one's own sense of morality.

    To quote nobel prize winner Bartholomew Skank 'A man must have his cake and eat it in order to justify his actions.' [2] He was first introduced to Mosin vs Mauser debate by his mother. If our political system can be seen as a cake, then Mosin vs Mauser debate makes a good case for being the icing.
    The question which we must each ask ourselves is, will we allow Mosin vs Mauser debate to win our vote?

    Conclusion

    In conclusion, Mosin vs Mauser debate plays a large part in the lives of all. It collaborates successfully, invades where necessary and is always fashionably late.

    As a parting shot here are the words of super-star Shania Beckham: 'I wouldn't be where I am today without Mosin vs Mauser debate.' [3]

    [1] Sir Bernard Chivilary - Interestingly... - 1904 Badger Books

    [2] Skank - Politics for Dummies - PV6 Media

    [3] It Magazine - Issue 302 - Spam Media Group
     
  25. geojap

    geojap Member

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    I've owned quite a few of both Mausers and Mosins from many different manufacturers. All were very nice and totally functional (even my Turk Mauser I got for $39 about 7 years ago). But for me nothing can ever come as close to the "ultimate rifle" like one of my unissued Finn Mosin B-Barrel M39s can. I think those are the pinnacle of surplus arms for many reasons. Incredible accuracy, extreme durability, incredibly well-tuned (trigger pull, etc), extremely functional, and fascinating history (arsenal markings, receiver provenance, receiver stampings, etc). I have Swedish, Persian, and WW-2 German Mausers, and have owned or shot a lot more at one time, but nothing comes close to B-Barrel M39's.

    Have fun collecting and shooting the different varieties, cwdotson. They are all great rifles and well-made.
     
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