Quantcast

"Most accurate" again in IDPA... help me speed up

Discussion in 'Competition Shooting' started by 1KPerDay, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. Hokie_PhD

    Hokie_PhD Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2017
    Messages:
    2,672
    Location:
    Central Virginia
    Even the King wrecked quite a bit winning all the races he won and winning those championships. Even going in a straight line, I'm pretty sure John Force wrecked some winning his 15 championships and zillion races!
     
    ATLDave likes this.
  2. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Messages:
    8,911
    And for basically the same reasons, I think the OP is going to have to "wreck" a few times on his way to getting faster. If he's got a really serious and big live-fire practice regimen with the ability to build actual stages himself, he may be able to do most of his wrecking in practice. For many shooters, though, they have to go through a phase of "putting the car into the wall" in matches for a bit. Most shooters would have a hard time getting where they want to go without ever passing though a phase where they were not even close to "most accurate."

    My advice to the OP would be this: It's a game. Make a conscious decision that, for a period of some fixed time (X many matches or weeks) you're going to let 'er rip for a while. You're not even going to worry about overall results. You're going to make a good faith effort to get hits, but that's about it. Just look at raw time for a while. Your overall results will probably stink. So what? It's just a game, and you weren't winning anyway. Let go of the ego-protection of having "most accurate" as a consolation prize. After doing that a while, you can go back to trying hard to get good hits on everything... and some of the speed gains will stay with you.
     
    Good Ol' Boy, 1KPerDay and tarosean like this.
  3. tarosean

    tarosean Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    6,965
    Location:
    TX
    exactly.

    my best learning experiences where squadding with nothing but GM's.. Yeah I probably finished close to dead last but I learned more than I could ever have elsewhere. They sucked me into going way faster than my skills were capable of... Even years later I use stuff I learned those days.
     
    ATLDave likes this.
  4. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    16,826
    Location:
    Happy Valley, UT
    that sounds like a reasonable approach to me
     
    ATLDave likes this.
  5. waktasz

    waktasz Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2003
    Messages:
    1,066
    Location:
    SE PA
    It really depends on what point in his progress he is already. Since he is going to matches and winning most accurate, I assume his basic technique is sound, and he is just too slow. In that event, he needs to PRACTICE going FAST. Practicing over and over again at a slow pace is just going to make him good at going slow, which it sounds like he already is. Obviously if your fundamentals are going in the toilet at that speed you need to self correct, but you have to go fast in practice to learn to be fast in matches.

    Get right up next to that target and learn to blast it. Then step back 1 yard and keep it up. Do everything with a timer, keep a log, etc.

    Personally, when we were learning how to go fast, the USPSA classifiers were a big help. We set up a few of those and with the knowledge of what the 100% scores were, pushed ourselves to hit that pace. Once we were able to complete the drill (most of them take 3-8 seconds at most) in the correct time, we worked on doing it on time and with good hits. Learning what the REQUIRED pace was FIRST, and then pushing to meet that pace while maintaining an accuracy requirement is what got us both to GM fairly quickly.
     
    tarosean and 1KPerDay like this.
  6. Hokie_PhD

    Hokie_PhD Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2017
    Messages:
    2,672
    Location:
    Central Virginia
    I'll respectfully disagree on the specifics on how to get faster. Again, I didn't say that all of the training should be slow and medium. But I will say that based on my martial arts training that what I posted works. I"m not saying it's the only way. But I know it's highly effective if done right. And yes going as fast as he can is part of it. I just don't think it's all that he should be working on.
     
  7. waktasz

    waktasz Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2003
    Messages:
    1,066
    Location:
    SE PA
    We aren't talking about martial arts though, we are talking about shooting. How fast is your shooting? The OP already said he is the most accurate guy at his matches, so if not speed, what else should he work on?
     
    ATLDave likes this.
  8. Hokie_PhD

    Hokie_PhD Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2017
    Messages:
    2,672
    Location:
    Central Virginia
    We're talking about body movement
    Reread what I wrote I'm not disagreeing that he has to work on the fast part. But I'm suggesting that it's not all he should be doing. You disagree. That's your right.

    I've taught many people to move much faster.
    It has to do with so called muscle memory and learning how to relax muscles. If one is stiff and tight you can't be really fast. Most people tense up when trying to go fast. DONE RIGHT going slow one can relax and learn how it feels to be relaxed. Then when they go fast they can feel the difference, it's why I teach folks to go slow, go faster then go as fast as you can. You're missing that last part as you don't like the first part.

    My shooting is still fairly new, and I'm doing what I've suggested to get faster. But it's not currently my top priority as unlike the OP I'm not happy with some of my technique. So your personal attack here is irrelevant. What I'm suggesting works in any sport not just martial arts. I've used it teaching baseball and racquetball also. Again it's a technique to become PHYSICALLY FASTER.

    So I'm willing to bet if he follows your way he'll improve but will max out with improvement at some point, when he does, if he tries what I suggest he'll bust past it and be faster than your way getting closer to his physical speed limits.
     
  9. Berger.Fan222

    Berger.Fan222 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    TX
    If you don't see shooting as a martial art: 1) You don't know what martial art means 2) You are doing it wrong.

    The martial arts are the arts of war and fighting. There are unarmed martial arts (what you may be thinking of) and armed martial arts (fencing, shooting, etc.)
     
  10. thomas15

    thomas15 Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    1,920
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I also have years of martial arts and rank. When I started TKD my progress was slow, slower than the others around me. But after a couple of years my abilities surpassed some of those who smoked me in the beginning. My skills came to me from practice, a lot of practice.

    I started action pistol shooting about 5 years ago. I am by no means good at this. My first two years were spent trying to figure out what exactly I wanted out of handgun competitions. I'm now into my 3rd year of steel and feel that this is my home for now. I can and do a little bit of IDPA and USPSA and even ICORE but steel is it for me.

    My first year of steel in revolver was horrible. Second year was an improvement, better gear and more determination. But, my New Years 2017 resolution was to dry fire and I have stuck to this. Timer with par settings and I do it every day (almost). I'm not close to winning matches but I'm starting to out-perform shooters that last year I thought I could never beat. I'm shooting a double action revolver from a holster. I'm starting to shoot 4.5 seconds on 5 targets on a regular basis. In my last 8 matches I haven't done a single on-the-clock reload with my 8 shot revolver.

    When I shoot a sub 4 second score it is almost if not always a situation where I'm not stopping to carefully aim but rather almost by instinct I'm hitting the targets. This is a very strange feeling for me as I come to this from a small bore rifle background where every shot is well planned. Some shooters have a natural ability but anyone can excel if they put in the time and by that you must do effective dryfire exercises at least 5 or 6 days/week. You do them even when you don't feel like it. Even 10 minutes a day will improve your scores a lot. Others have mentioned specific books and everyone I know that does well and is honest has these books and follows them.

    And this is why Hokie we have this constant battle in the reloading sub-forum regarding progressive presses. If you are like me, an individual that works 10 hour days at my for real pay job but want to be a good handgun competitor you not only have to dry fire but you also have to live fire. This requires a lot of ammo, since Jan 1 I have burned through 6000+ rounds and I'm way behind my intended plan. I need lots of ammo quick so that excludes anything but a progressive reloading press.

    For some there is another problem because some ranges will not allow you to practice steel or action pistol type shooting. I'm lucky, I have and belong to a private club 25 miles from home that is home to a very good crowd and a few standout shooters. I can set up and practice any kind of scenario I want. It's work but it's worth it. None of it comes to me I have to chase it.

    No matter how well you plan it and no matter how good you are at hitting paper targets from a stationary firing line you will get smoked at your first match. Everyone who wins a match first lost a whole bunch of them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
  11. waktasz

    waktasz Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2003
    Messages:
    1,066
    Location:
    SE PA
    Yep. Doing it wrong. Competitive pistol shooting is a sport. I don't train shooting in order to shoot people.
     
  12. Berger.Fan222

    Berger.Fan222 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    TX
    And I truly hope and pray neither of us ever have to. But I don't fantasize that the RKBA is not about a martial art.

    IT IS.
     
  13. waktasz

    waktasz Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2003
    Messages:
    1,066
    Location:
    SE PA
    When I said we aren't talking about martial arts, we are talking about shooting, what I meant was we aren't talking about hand to hand fighting. The skills are different. That's all. Go away.
     
  14. Berger.Fan222

    Berger.Fan222 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    TX
    Some of the physical skills are different, but a lot of the mindset and focus issues are common across all martial arts. A close family member was captured and interrogated by an officer with an underpowered pistol while serving in Vietnam. He broke the officer's neck and escaped, because he guessed right that the underpowered pistol would not penetrate his flak jacket. When the balloon goes up, there are no longer the neat divisions between hand to hand fighting and armed fighting that we pretend there are in times of peace and prosperity, or when we have the luxury to send others to fight on our behalf.

    Things are a lot different at bad breath distances.
     
  15. waktasz

    waktasz Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2003
    Messages:
    1,066
    Location:
    SE PA
    I think you took a wrong turn at the gunfighting tactics forum
     
  16. Berger.Fan222

    Berger.Fan222 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    TX
    Maybe I realize what IDPA is intended to be:

    The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters.
     
  17. thomas15

    thomas15 Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    1,920
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    The owner, with the approving nod of the BODs can say anything they want that doesn't make it true.
     
  18. waktasz

    waktasz Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2003
    Messages:
    1,066
    Location:
    SE PA
    Jesus man. This is the competition forum and I'm giving competition oriented advice...but what do I know, I just shoot cardboard.
     
    1KPerDay and ATLDave like this.
  19. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    22,607
    Location:
    northern california
    I had to chuckle a little bit at the above.

    IDPA was originally intended as a feeder sport/game/contest for USPSA...a lower cost entry into Action Pistol, if you will
     
  20. waktasz

    waktasz Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2003
    Messages:
    1,066
    Location:
    SE PA
    I don't think the people who started IDPA thought of it that way.
     
  21. Igloodude

    Igloodude Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Messages:
    750
    Location:
    southern NH
    Ummm... back to our regularly scheduled program? o_O

    As a longtime (but very very sporadic and out of practice) bullseye shooter that just shot his first USPSA match last week, I'm also "too slow but (too) accurate" (in the match only 25% had more A hits than me, and half of them were carbine shooters) and thankful for all the ideas here.

    I'm taking away four things:
    -The "trust your subconscious" firing; it's about just keeping it in the vicinity of the black, not touching the X-ring.
    -Practicing fast second shots, I was generally aiming both.
    -Practicing non-firing: draws, reloads, reloads-with-moving, and arrive/acquire/triggerpull.
    -"Go too fast," to get a better idea of where the boundary actually is, so you can get closer to it.

    I do have to say, listening to folks thrown by the "Area Five Standards" qualifier stage (50yds two-hand, 25yds strong hand, 15yds weak hand) was pretty fun... until I realized my usual bullseye aiming speed was about as bad as missing quickly...
     
  22. MrBorland

    MrBorland Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2007
    Messages:
    5,015
    Location:
    NC
    Congrats on your first match, Igloodude. I think your take-away list is a good one.

    Target shooters often seem to have a tough transition to action shooting because they get caught up in a very narrow definition of "marksmanship" - that is, to hit the x-ring - and thus have a hard time doing anything they consider "lesser". Indeed, some bullseye pundits have even posited that USPSA/IDPA/ICORE requires no skill, since "they don't require aiming".

    It might help them to realize that a broader definition of "marksmanship" is simply seeing what you need to hit, and hitting it when you need to hit it. I think we'd all agree the bullseye shooter who sees the x-ring and hits it with a slow deliberate shot is exhibiting excellent marksmanship. But the USPSA shooter who "sees" a B-zone shot, intentionally takes the shot, and hits it in 0.2 seconds (because it's faster than waiting for an A-zone hit), is exhibiting excellent marksmanship as well. Neither are easy skills to develop, and both take lots of practice.
     
    1KPerDay, drband and ATLDave like this.
  23. Berger.Fan222

    Berger.Fan222 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    TX
    Improvement comes in steps. I recommend going into Practiscore and having a look at your hit factors: this is your points per second at each stage. Improving your hit factors to average above 2 is different from above 3, 4, and 5 points per second. You have to make gradual improvements by addressing the one or two things slowing you down the most.

    For a beginner, I'd say a good goal in the next few matches is to be within a factor of two of the guys in your same division (gun type) with the highest hit factors. If you are shooting limited, select the option in the Practiscore results where you are only comparing with other guys shooting limited, etc. If the highest hit factor of someone shooting in your same division on a given stage is a 5.4, a beginner is not doing too badly if your hit factor is a 2.7 (5.4/2).

    I'd also recommend picking one or two things at a time to focus on at a time. Beginners don't so as well trying to fix 5-10 different things they could do better after their first match. You have to prioritize.
     
  24. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Messages:
    8,911
    The good news is that, with the possible exception of movers, you'll probably never see shots in USPSA that you think are genuinely, intrinsically "hard." The "hard" will always come from the circumstances - the time pressure, trying to do things from an awkward position, trying to take shots in the context of a complicated memory-stage plan, etc.

    FWIW, I posted this a few months ago in response to another new shooter. Take it for what it's worth, it may not all be applicable to you:

    The good news is that, at that level and level of experience, improvement is likely to come quickly and easily... you surely have a LOT of low-hanging fruit to pick. A few random thoughts, based on nothing in particular except running a club match that sees lots of new shooters every year and then getting to watch those guys/gals improve (or not improve):

    1. If you learn by reading, read one of the good books. I personally like this one a lot: http://astore.amazon.com/bensto02-20/detail/1533397716

    2. You [the poster to whom I was responding] say you lack athletic ability because you drive a desk. Lots of highly-classified shooters are flat-out obese. Being very fit is helpful, but it's not essential. What is essential is that when you move, you move with urgency. Lots of shooters - including guys who run marathons or who were serious high school or even college athletes - tiptoe through stages. To hell with that. If you need to move, MOVE! Move like you're playing shortstop and a ball has been hit into the hole, or like your toddler is playing in the street and a cement mixer is barreling towards them... you HAVE to get there, and being .5 seconds late getting there is as bad as not getting there at all. That's the mentality for movement, IMO.

    3. Lots of dryfire. Lots of draws and reloads especially. Just like with your feet, get used to moving your hands fast. Slow is not fast. Fast is fast.

    4. Don't worry about breaking the shot faster. Do everything else faster. Get the gun up and ready to fire faster (and before your feet stop moving if you're coming in to a position). Move your eyes between targets faster. Run as fast as you can. Break the shot when the sights are telling you.

    5. Get used to firing - or at least aiming - without being completely "settled" into position. Lots of people coming from a square range background really seem to want to "settle" into a shooting position for quite a while before they can really begin the process of shooting. Nuts to that. Be looking at the front sight while you're still "settling," and as soon as it tells you that you're aimed at the A-zone, go for it.

    It's possible that some or all of the above doesn't apply to you, but, IME, these things apply to basically all new USPSA shooters, especially slow ones. There are surely many other individual-specific points, but the above are near-universal. Next most common would be completely ineffective recoil control, but that is more individualized to identify and fix... and it's possible you don't have that issue.

    Note: I'm a B-class shooter, so I've got no tips on how to get really good. But I know how to get from terrible to mediocre!​
     
    Igloodude, 1KPerDay and MrBorland like this.
  25. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    16,826
    Location:
    Happy Valley, UT
    I shot 1911 division in a local match a couple weekends back and got some video... which has been very helpful to identify where I'm losing seconds per stage. Lots of slow draws, very slow reloads (leather mag pouches+love handles+unfamiliar pistol+baggy hawaiian shirt=slow mag draws), slow movement, and even when I'm starting a reload when leaving one position I'm still finishing it when arriving at the next position, so it didn't really save me any time. Lost a few seconds on a couple stages because I'm still not deactivating the grip safety on my DW reliably/effectively. I like this pistol a lot but that has cost me a lot of time over a few matches. I've looked at the safety and there's not much wiggle room in the tab/notch if I want the safety to still be functional. Thinking about adding some sort of non-permanent "bump" to accentuate the memory bump, or shaving down my thumb safety to allow less pressure upward on the beavertail... or something. Plus my lead 200 gr SWCs which worked perfectly in the range caused a couple FTFs until I switched to my plated RN loads. I saved $.14 but lost first place. Good thinking, bub. :D

    Plus I need to run faster rather than lumber. But lumbering is what my knees can do all day. LOL

    So my advice is have someone take video of you... you're probably going slower than you feel like you're going.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice