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Most Inexpensive and Efficient way to Obtain Firearms Training?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by 4Freedom, Apr 11, 2009.

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  1. RapidFireBeak

    RapidFireBeak Member

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    You don't need some expensive "commando" school to develop personal combat skills. Frankly, it probably wouldn't even help. If you want to develop good gunfighting skills, I would suggest that you first find a few quality firearms that you would enjoy training with regularly. Then attend a basic course for each (rifle, pistol, shotgun, etc.) to develop good basic skills. There are a number of very high quality 2-5 day courses in most regions of the country offered by various schools. Then, drill the basics. Dry fire regularly (CAREFULLY, making sure that weapons are unloaded and ammunition is in another room) and shoot live fire once a week if possible. When you go to train at the range, train, don't just poke noisy holes. Practice drills, and begin drills with the weapon in the holstered or slung position. A progressive reloading press can help alleviate ammunition costs (and give you another skill to develop). Getting into USPSA or IDPA type matches is a great way to improve skills and motivation to stay in practice.

    As far as conditioning goes, join a gym and develop a reasonable regimen you will stick with. If you are in a decent sized city, there are probably several unarmed combat schools around (I recommend Judo as an introduction to the martial arts.)

    If you put in time and effort, you can develop a high level of skill and conditioning. Joining the military is not necessary. The reserves/Guard are an option, but realize that you will probably be deployed. Many if not most top competitive shooters are civilians. Frankly, unless you are in a combat arm, the military is going to be less concerned about your ability to shoot straight than if you've done your yearly sexual assault and water safety trainings.

    People who are really slick are really slick because they choose to be so. It requires a lot more effort than most are willing to give. They don't rest on their laurels and aren't as impressed with pedigree as ability.
     
  2. 4Freedom

    4Freedom member

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    Thanks once again for all the good information. I am reading over the thread several times and trying to grasp all the different information people are giving to me. The advice Jeff gives about the NRA courses is good and I plan on doing all the basic and more economical courses I can take. However, to endlessly spend thousands on different courses, just isn't feasible by me with my current finances. Also, travelling around USA for courses, is not cheap and can be time consuming.

    Many said take martial arts, that is on the agenda, my brother and grandfather were black belts in Kung Fu San Soo and could very quickly disable their opponents. Grandfather was an 8th degree black belt, who trained in the same studio as Jimmy Woo. Very gruesome martial art, been looking for a dojo, but none in my area. I will be looking around, when I can get some time, to join one of these places, kidn of sucks being in the country, everything is far from me.

    Also, I am in good physical shape and do a lot of military style physical exercise, like divebomber pushups, hindu squats, and built my own home gym. I designed my own dumbbells from a hardware store to do special types of exercises, done more by people in military, boxers and other type of athletes in fighting sports. I try to push myself to the extremes physically and also into nutrition, health and fitness. I work hard at the physical side, since I know that will always help in bad times. Also, stronger I am, the lighter the gun and ammo feels when I carry it.

    I can just give a little of the experience I had to test my spirit, nothing compared to being in combat, though. I managed to survive 6 months in the jungles of africa, which had its share of dangers, such as malaria, snakes, thieves, corrupt policemen. I got to experience what it was like having a hungry and corrupt policeman, putting an AK47 next to my face on an empty jungle road, scaring me into giving him money. That was one of many bad experiences I had there. I am not saying it's the same as having bullets whizzing past you. Being unarmed and not immune to diseases in these countries is an experience though, I can tell you.

    Ummm.. well I am a software developer, not a computer repair person, actually I am not such an expert in the hardware side of it, I develop programs that run on the OS. With all due respect, I am sure the military has its share of skilled technicians, software people and hardware and electronic specialists and engineers. I am just talking on average, the average soldier, probably does not have the skills of a software engineer. If they do thats great, gives more inspiration to me.. I wonder how I could fit 12 hours of day of this work and combat/military/defense training in the same schedule. I know with faith and strong determination, you can do a lot of amazing things.


    Sorry, well I exaggerated. I was thinking the total cost by the end of the trip: plane fare, ammo, food, lodging at motels, course tuition. Not to mention, they only allow you to shoot lead free ammo, which is a pain, maeans I have to buy the most expensive ammo possible, that could easily run $1,000 or more, alone.


    Anyhow, I am going to investigate basic courses for now. But , as time progresses I like to do the best type of training possible. My father is a Vietnam veteran from late 60s and has told me that he did not particularly learn much about tactical and gun training. He said boot camp was rigorous and made him tough as hell. Things may have changed since then. I am sure being in military gives you many opportunities though that average civilians don't have. However, seeing I am in my 30s and work long houred job, with lot of stress, the best I can do is make this an extracurricular activity, that I devote alot of time to.
     
  3. Hungry Seagull

    Hungry Seagull member

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    I would like to see the title edited to reflect the fact that money does not buy everything. Especially when our own Freedom to spend money as we please is bought and paid for by Soldiers, Sailors Airmen and Marines with thier devotion, duty, blood and sacriface.
     
  4. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    I agree.

    I really don't like this subject being approached like this much at all. To inquire how to learn those skills cheaply is pretty insulting.

    You got your answer. Whether you like it or not isn't going to change what's necessary to get there.


    There isn't a free lunch. You want the best. You're not going to get it without money and time. You can't buy skills; you have to earn them. But if you're not willing to start the process right and invest in a course, there's nowhere to go with the discussion.


    I don't really care if that sounds harsh. I expect you'd say the same thing to a customer who wanted a high end program but wanted to do it on a POS machine and balked at your quote to do the job right. And just like you'd tell a customer who wouldn't listen to your hard-bought, hard-earned experience but still wanted to continue down his path:

    "I can't help you. Good luck."
     
  5. 4Freedom

    4Freedom member

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    Well, sorry that people ended up getting offended. I think you are getting a bit emotional.. If someone asked if I can quickly become a good software developer and cheaply in 2 weeks, I may scoff at them, but certainly not get offended.

    And for your information, you are making accusations and saying I said things I did not. I never said I wanted to find a place that would make me a great shooter or good in combat in 2 weeks. Go read my posts.. I said I would like to find the most economical way to learn military training. I never said I woudl be as knowledgable or skilled as these people. Really, its a bit revolting that people get so easily upset here over nothing. How is me saying I like to save money and still be able to do military style training an insult? I never said I am going to end up being a first class navy seal.

    And for your information, I was planning on spending money for training courses. But I only have so much money. I already spent thousands and thousands on guns, ammo, optics and still don't even have all equipment I should have. However, the rest is saved for training, practice. I know my life is threatened, in general, because of personal matters I cannot discuss, and no one can tell me that I should just sit around and do nothing, because I cannot go join military or spend my food money on endless high priced training courses.

    Please, if you can just understand my position as being new with guns or combat in general you can see I am just trying to find the best way to approach this. Yes, sorry that now I am in my 30s and have a business and cannot toss away my career to be a full time soldier. Forgive me for saying cheap, I meant an inexpensive way to learning combat training skills. I cannot imagine that every person in this country who has learned some fighting and gun skills, is a millionaire.

    Please don't tell me that I don't respect people in the armed forces. I have much respect for them and never said what they did is cheap. I would never say sh** like that. I am highly offended that people would make such an outrageous accusation. I know those men devote their lives and guts to serve the country and do some of the most intense work any man on earth can do. A cousin of mine lost his eyeball and finger on second tour in Army, in Iraq. He paid a high price for his service and experience. Please don't tell me that I don't respect the work that people in armed forces do. I highly respect those who have risked their lives to keep us here and give us freedom.

    Had I not had a family to support and over 1000 medical professionals who rely on me to keep their offices going, I probably would go and join the military now; in my life I don't have much to live for, but helping others and defending our freedoms which are always at risk of being lost. My life has not been a pretty or happy one at all and I have a goal to do as much good as I can.

    Guns, bombs and training are the only reason I am alive today, the other relatives I had who were told they couldn't fight or have guns ended their lives in chambers of death. I just want to do my best not to join the millions of them who died this way. Even if I am a crappy with my gun and in combat, it beats having no training at all. I'll just have to deal with the deck of cards I was dealt.


    P.S. TItle changed.. Sorry for those who were offended by it, for whatever reason.
     
  6. Dark Skies

    Dark Skies Member

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    My advice would be to take up a class in Krav Maga. It is the martial art that Israel personnel are taught and it trains you for real world street scenarios.

    Here's a taster on YouTube.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07jnqD8wvyE
     
  7. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    I spent 13 years as a DA civilian in USAJFKSWCS, the schoolhouse at Fort Bragg where Special Forces, Psychological Operations and Civil Affairs soldiers are trained.

    When Special Forces soldiers get the kind of "advanced firearms training" you seem to be talking about, guess where they go?

    Yep.

    To the very same schools and the very same professional instructors that you can go to.

    Why?

    Because it is the most efficient means available of imparting the necessary skill set in the shortest time at the least overall expense. Why is it that several of those folks have now retired after full careers in the business and started their own shooting schools? Because the concept works, there is a need for it in the 'real world', they have the abilities necessary to impart those skills plus the experience to teach effectively (Special Forces soldiers are teachers first, last and always, no matter what misapprehensions the public has about them).

    Granted, for those relative few in the military who do kickin' and shootin' for a living, there are facilities available where they can continually practice and hone their skills. There are courses taught by the military that cover the basics, since I don't know what's still classified and what's not I'm not going to discuss any of that. But I know for a fact that during the years I was working with them, all sorts of folks were sent to the various shooting schools at Army expense, and many more went on their own dime, on their own time.

    The best way to learn stuff is to get taught by someone who knows. THE BEST firearms instructors in the world are available to anyone with a clean criminal record, right here in the US, and many of them even come to your area to teach, which saves travel expenses. Take a look at the tread at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=396584 for some of them. Get your basics down in the available NRA classes, get good safety habits well established, then look for some professional training.

    There simply is no better way to do it. Yeah, you can spend years on a flat range standing in one spot poking holes in paper that stays in one spot, and bragging about what a good shot you are. But that won't teach you how to get off the X and live through a gunfight. Someone who teaches gunfighting WILL teach you to do just that. And shooting all by itself is NOT gunfighting. Yes, you need to know how to shoot, and to be safe doing it. You need to start with the basics, crawl walk run. There just aren't any shortcuts that I know of, if there were someone would be exploiting them already.

    FWIW,

    lpl
     
  8. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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  9. Al Thompson

    Al Thompson Moderator Emeritus

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    Just to repeat - most military folks are NOT gun folks. :)

    What makes for a well trained military person is team tactics. I don't think that's what your after.

    In addition to the schools mentioned, get to your local USPSA or IDPA shoots and participate. You'll quickly find that what makes a superb shooter is the he or she can consistently apply the basics well. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

    Going to a school for the basics will be MUCH more cost effective both short and long term. When I got back from Iraq, I went to a basic pistol course as I had not shoot in over a year. The basics are key.
     
  10. 4Freedom

    4Freedom member

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    Thanks for the great advice Lee, Al, and ummm Lone Gunman :p ..

    Lonegunman, Wow the elite team mall ninja guy is hot stuff.. How much does he charge for poison dart assassin skills? Always wanted to do that. What malls can I train in?? Do they provide free orange julius and hot dogs from the food court with my training? :p:D


    Well, in case the elite team guy is not available, I will investigate some of sources Lee and others mentioned. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2009
  11. Floppy_D

    Floppy_D Member In Memoriam

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    You sound like a great candidate for IDPA.
     
  12. Hungry Seagull

    Hungry Seagull member

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    I myself have thought to take drills that might be offered at my very small range. There are instructors availible that can probably run me through some drills.

    There are other organizations availible that I am also learning about where one may run through more elaborate or possibly more specific drills.

    I constantly try to do better with shooting in general, the same way I constantly work to maintain what small computers we have in our home with parts and keep those machines going near 100% without trouble almost 24/7.

    It is not wrong to want to learn new things, it is not wrong to want to do better. There is great things going for you and those others who want the brass ring. Go for it.

    But to my one track mind, I say the Military is where it's at. Otherwise for those not able to serve (Disabilkity, age etc) there are still many courses availible here in the USA that will help you function better under stress.

    Let's see where we can start with basic pistol and work our way up into more advanced material that is my attitude right now.

    I will tell you this. It is my belief that... some kind of learning, training administered by good instructors is going to be good for you. A common druggie, criminal or other person on the street probably will be handicapped by lack of knowledge, safety, be hungry and shaky and otherwise very predatory. But when you are calm and able to process the situation and stay alive. You come out on top.

    Some of the best problems resolve without anyone getting hurt. Unfortunately does not always happen.

    I was taught to drive a truck. But real learning was out there on the big road. And I paid a price in seeing people hurt bad, dead or other damage and unnecessary losses incurred by either my own inexperience or someone else's bad mistakes. Sometimes there was a moment that my own life was essentially over unless somehow I can "Miss it by THIS Much" :scrutiny: and im still here. Until next time.

    Cheers.
     
  13. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

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    Everybody just barely gets through Ranger school. Otherwise, it wouldn't be Ranger school. That's the key difference between military and civilian training. If you can't cut it in a military school, they want to find that out as soon as possible. In the "old days" wash out rates for elite schools of 85-90% were considered acceptable. I don't know what the ratios are today, but I'd assume they're still pretty similar. If you did that in a civilian school, you'd run out of students in a hurry. I'm not saying that civilian schools wouldn't wash people out, they just don't have as much of a vested interest in making sure only the best graduate.

    The instructors at Ranger school are some of the best trained, toughest guys you'll ever meet. They've been there, done that and they know they can't afford to pass someone who's gonna get out into the field and quit on his buddies. Civilian can do that, troops can't. That's just the hard facts of life.

    That said, it doesn't mean you can't get good training at a civilian school. What they're going to show you is something you'll have to take home and practice. What you learn in a military school you'll have to live, at least for some specified time. Most all the schools have a requirement for time left in service before you can attend, usually at least a year. Gotta get their money's worth out of you. ;)
     
  14. Kentucky Kernel

    Kentucky Kernel Member

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    4Freedom: You're in your 30's; have been in the jungles of Africa and stared down a AK47; have worked for a decade on your computer-based business; have insinuated that your relatives died in the Holocaust; your gramps and brother are blackbelts; your dad and cousin are vets; you are new to guns; you own thousands of dollars in guns; your life has been threatened but you can't discuss it; you live in the country in the US; you have 1000's of clients in your business; you do hindu squats and are in such great shape that your guns and ammo feel like air when you carry them.

    Is my "nonsense" detector the only one here that is pinging like crazy?

    I just can't resist asking: Why do you feel you need these advanced fighting skills? It seems that what you are requesting goes much much deeper that personal protection and protecting loved ones. Your occupation involves working from home, so you need to protect your home and possessions, sure.

    But this "commando" stuff? Why? If the answer is only "because I can and it's my right", then fine. Do it for love of country and service, but not so you can creep around your neighborhood in black pajammys.

    If you are being honest and sincere, then I do apologize (you seem bigger than life); but if you are just a teller of tall tales, then for shame for misleading these good men and women on THR who took the time to provide sincere opinions.

    KK
     
  15. Quoheleth

    Quoheleth Member

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    4Freedom:
    ...but yet:
    I think Kentucky Kernel hit it on the head:
    PING PING PING PING

    Q
     
  16. Hungry Seagull

    Hungry Seagull member

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    Maybe killing off all those power sucking computers for a few weeks will generate adequate funding away from the vampire electric billing LOL.

    /sarcasm.
     
  17. Corporal K

    Corporal K member

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    You're not going to get military training anywhere but the military.

    Though it's fun to do, as a civilian you're not going to need to learn how to transition from your 5.56 to a sidearm or how do perform hostage rescue. You can take some outdoor survival courses, but you won't need SERE knowledge. You're never going to recon a terrorist training camp in a war-ravaged South American or Middle Eastern country or influence a foreign election or vaccinate a bunch of kids in Khost or the myriad of other things "commandos" do.

    Take some good concealed-weapons courses, shoot your guns a lot, and be a good software engineer. You're not going to be a "commando" in this lifetime.
     
  18. Corporal K

    Corporal K member

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    You can also take Krav Maga - it's a great martial art.
     
  19. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    If you want to learn to be a soldier, sign up. Heck, send me an email.

    If you want to learn the skills you can use as a legal CCL/CCW holder in the U.S., you can start small, with two-three day classes that will give you good fundamentals you can build on without enormous expense.

    John
     
  20. jparham

    jparham Member

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    First of all: you aren't a citizen soldier, unless you are a member of the National Guard, in which case you are. Judging by the tone and content of you writing, I'd say you were a male between 17-45, and thus you are in the unorganized militia, but the chances of you being called into service for that are very slim. If you are a volunteer firefight/ policeman/ other type of first responder, you are still not a citizen soldier.
    If you want to learn to be a soldier, than join the military. Since you can't/ don't want to, you can learn some things about soldiering. Combat skills and basic tactics-- I pretty sure the military manuals for this are online. Engineering, flying, whatever else, other resources are available.
    If, however, you are trying to simply better you defense of self and others capability, than that's a whole 'nother ballgame. George Matheis (Mercop on here) offers good and reasonably affordable (I think) SD courses. If you can't spring for those, than Massad Ayoob (another poster, or at least in the past, here) offers some good books on the subject. Shooting skills you can hone yourself, and with a little help from a local school you can gain some martial arts skills. And there are also courses for first aid, first responder, disaster preparedness stuff available.
     
  21. Clarence

    Clarence Member

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    What Jeff said.
     
  22. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    4Freedom,

    Join the Army
    Go to foreign places
    Meet interesting people
    AND KILL THEM

    Join the National Guard
    Go to foreign places
    Meet interesting people
    AND KILL THEM (but only part-time)

    I honestly say for real commando training the military is the only route. You will have to pay the price if you want that kind of training. And I bet you learn alot more than just commando skills while you are at it.
     
  23. 4Freedom

    4Freedom member

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    Sorry for being off the subject, but to address Kentucky Kernel's skepticism:

    Yes, I am a computer software developer, develop medical/dental practice management systems. Yes, its family biz, but I am the main developer for it now and will be taking it over within 5-10 years.

    Yes, I am in my 30s. Well, yeah I am sure its hard to believe what anybody says on the internet. However, everything I said is the truth. I have plenty of pics to back up my claims of my trip to Africa, if you ever want to see. I went to Uganda, Tanzania and Ghana. I did humanitarian trip to Uganda and met up with a church there who I assisted with computer equipment, which I brought from USA. I was there helping widows, orphans, some suffering with AIDS and the orphanage with my skills. I did a safari in Tanzania and explored the town of Arusha while I was there. Then a year later, I went to Ghana, and did an exploration all on my own. I just went there by myself, man was I stupid, was lot more than I bargained for. Yes, I did have the honor of having a police man put an AK47 (next to my face). I was freaked out. He did not put the gun to my head. WHat he did was he came to the car and stuck the AK47 through the window next to my face to intimidate me. "Yevu, Yevu (white man, white man), I am thirsty give me something, give me something for my boys (the other police guys he was with), they want food." That is what he said. There are many thing that happened to me there, like the time I was detained by corrupt police in Hohoe, Ghana, who were seeing if they could somehow get a bribe off of me. Ever been to an African jail? I never had so many policemen as friends and enemies as in this country.

    Grandfather trained at Jimmy H. Woos studio in LA, if you like to talk to his instructor I have his contact info, LOL. My brother also trained with one of the highest ranked instructors in Reseda, California, back when he lived up here in the NW. You can also talk to him if you like, if you are skeptical. I don't want to give the personal info here on the board, but can in PM.

    Dad, cousin (adopted), but still my cousin, and my grandfather are all vets. Grandfather served in Navy in WWII, father was hospital corpman, but later transferred to navy hospital ship (have the ship name) in Vietnam.

    Yeah, I got a few guns, not a lie, review my previous posts and you can see all the posts about them.

    Yes, I consider those dead in holocaust my relatives, my people, sorry a figure of speech. Yes, grandma had to run from the nazis in Ukraine and come to USA, they exterminated her whole village.

    Well, I can in PM chat I suppose.. If you really need to know details. I have my reasons for thinking this.

    Have you read about Ross Enamait? I have his course and follow it. I am pretty dedicated to doing these exercises. I enjoy good pain :D.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2009
  24. 4Freedom

    4Freedom member

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    OK, sorry for being off topic there, when someone says they don't believe me for whatever reason, I ahve to do my best to defend what I say.

    Anyhow, I am still reading all the information and bookmarking this thread in my browser. I know it sounds far fetched what I am after and I know I may not achieve everything I want, but most of the advice people have given me here is very helpful.

    FOr those who say join the military, I just have to say, 12 years ago, if I had the chance , I would've, so not an option now. I will just have to do my best to train as a civilian. It sounds from some people here, that there is some good options for improving shooting and combat skills in civilian training programs. Of course, I know nothing can compared to devoting your whole life to training, such as being in military. All I can say, is any type of decent training is better than nothing and can make the difference in life and death.


    Well, i wish I could join the National Guard, but if there is any chance i can be called to combat and my business is ruined, then that is just too much of a risk for me to take.

    Well, I think I will take the latter advice for now. Starting small is what I am going to do for now, but want to progress in the correct manner.


    Yes, I have heard a lot about this martial art. I am still fixated on Kung Fu San SOo, as I saw how effective it was when my brother and grandfather would practice. Its extremely brutal and practical martial art. I think Krav Maga as wll as Kalari Peyattu are also. They are fighting arts, not sporting or competition martial arts.

    Thanks for this advice.. I have a list of books on improving gun skills. Yes, I know of Massad Ayoob and want to buy a lot of his books. I have read some of his articles online. If you have any good suggestions of books that are good for a beginner on this subject, I would appreciate if you could send them to me. Everything is a bit overwhelming right now, since there is so many different things to learn. I just want to start with the simplest set of books that can give me some well rounded knowledge on improving gun and basic combat skills and then go from there. I will definately be seeking out all the basic types of shooting courses I can, but I like to have a goal of which way I can progress.

    Thanks, never said I would be a commando. Well, they did have an Al Queda terrorist training camp not far from where I use to live here in NW, so one can never know, what you may stumble upon, especially in this day and age.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2009
  25. Howaido

    Howaido Member

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    Just about any military training can be replicated in the civvy world. Mountaineering, survival, parachuting, scuba, small arms, etc.

    If you want to replicate my military experience, just put yourself in situations where you are miserable for extended periods of time. That's it. Become proficient in being miserable. ;)
     
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