Most likely cause of horizontal flyers?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by wombat13, Oct 18, 2021.

  1. d2wing

    d2wing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,725
    Ruger 77's are not noted for accuracy. to get it better you may have to do some work to it. Free float, bedding. I don't know just guessing. With a heavy recoil rifle technique is important when shooting off bags.
     
    LoonWulf, Demi-human and wombat13 like this.
  2. Archie

    Archie Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    3,370
    Location:
    Hastings, Nebraska - the Heartland!
    My normal common problem in horizontal or vertical spread is sight picture. Instead of concentrating on the very center of the aim point (usually a small round target of some form) I will shoot whenever the crosshair or front sight is somewhere in the black.
    A makeshift rest can cause the same problems.
    The "gotcha-YANK" trigger pull system manifests as this sort of problem as well. No serious shooter would be guilty of such. Not me, surely. No. Hunh-nah.
     
    LoonWulf and wombat13 like this.
  3. wombat13

    wombat13 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,346
    Here's another example target. This was sighting in my Savage Axis II last year prior to hunting season. 100 gr. Nosler Partition factory loads. Top three are at 100 yards. Bottom three are at 200 yards. Not surprised the 200 yard group is about 2 inches max spread. 100 yard group would be very tight, but there is that one shot about 1"-1.5" to the right.
    25-06 Target 100 & 200 Yards 1October 2020.JPG
     
    LoonWulf likes this.
  4. Turkeytider

    Turkeytider Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2021
    Messages:
    61
    Doesn`t everybody do that? LOL!! You put two in there really close...and then....for who knows why......??
     
    LoonWulf likes this.
  5. wombat13

    wombat13 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,346
    That’s the thing…almost all of my crap shots are to the side, not up or down. Also, the flyer is more often to the right (I’m left-handed).
     
    LoonWulf likes this.
  6. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    28,516
    how are you holding your rifle? support hand on a bag or the forearm?
     
    LoonWulf likes this.
  7. wombat13

    wombat13 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,346
    Here is another example from a few years ago when I first got the .25-06 Savage Axis II. 100 gr Nosler ballistic tip factory ammo. Would be one ragged hole if not for the horizontal spread.

    Edited to add: The measurements shown on the target is for the four-shot group. The farthest right shot is the cold bore shot. It was 8 degrees that day so the barrel wasn't heating up too much, so I fully loaded the magazine and shot the five rounds.

    27440DD1-8B4F-4C1C-8BE1-B3AED607517A.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
    LoonWulf likes this.
  8. Demi-human

    Demi-human Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    4,837
    Location:
    The Haymarsh, MI (Aka, Paradise.)
    If the rifle isn’t moving when you touch the trigger, and if the scope is functioning, and all this ammunition is the same, all I’m am seeing is a non- bedded, non-free floated rifle, whose stock is changing with humidity.
    Even if the barrel is cooled the act of getting it hot will have an affect on the moisture content of the stock. A wandering zero from season to season is another symptom of this.
    Perfectly acceptable for most applications.
    :thumbup:
     
    LoonWulf and wombat13 like this.
  9. wombat13

    wombat13 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,346
    The Ruger is in a laminated wood stock. Do they have the same humidity problems? The Savage is a plastic stick so I doubt that has anything to do with humidity. I’m not sure why humidity would cause shots 2, 3, and 5 to group and shot 4 to be 2” to the right.
     
  10. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2016
    Messages:
    7,033
    Location:
    Fl panhandle
    In my experience, these are the most common reasons:
    1- not achieving natural point of aim for the shot
    2- trigger control
    3- a deficiency in use of support (rifle sliding on bag, loose bipod, etc.)
    4- wind effects (unlikely with a 338 WM at 100).
     
  11. JDGray

    JDGray Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,567
    Location:
    SW MI.
    Your shooting position behind the rifle makes a big difference. Pull the rifle into your shoulder, while looking at your target through the scope, does it move sideways?
     
    LoonWulf and wombat13 like this.
  12. Archie

    Archie Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    3,370
    Location:
    Hastings, Nebraska - the Heartland!
    My experience and observation tells me such horizontal spread (as in post # 32) come from a sight picture on target not as consistent as one thinks. The rather firm horizontal line indicates a pretty decent rest for the forend. That largely prevents vertical movement.
    Vertical movement is usually a result of mirage, the 'dancing' of the air leads to 'dancing' of the bull.

    Since the variation in shots is rather small, perhaps a bedding problem, which allows a tiny shift of the barreled action in the stock, this causes the entire rifle to recoil slightly to the left or right resulting in marginal errors. If that is the problem, it will be quite subtle.

    Is this a hunting item or a target piece? If a hunting rifle, the accuracy might just be more than adequate. I also suggest keeping a record of shots to determine if the first shot is closer to the mark and how far and what direction shots 2, 3, 4 and so on impact to see if one can find a pattern to the shot holes.

    What sort of rest system do you use?
     
    cornfused, LoonWulf and wombat13 like this.
  13. wombat13

    wombat13 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,346
    No, it tended to raise the POA. The fore end stock is flat and the support under the fore end was flat. The bottom of the stock rear stock is sloped, so pulling it back even slightly lowers the rear of the stock slightly and raised the POA maybe 1/2". I then put downward pressure on the barrel just in front of the scope to get back to the bull.
     
    LoonWulf and JDGray like this.
  14. JDGray

    JDGray Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,567
    Location:
    SW MI.
    I quit using the rest after I get my load developed. I would now zero using whatever means you will use in the field. I always used a bipod, so I zeroed off a bipod. It's not free floated, so I wouldn't get to caught up on precision. I would still just zero off of the cold bore, and see if you can hold a group over a few days of cold bore shots. If this was a precision set up, yeah, figure out what's going on with your mechanics. Tiny one hole groups are repeatable, only if you do the same thing exactly the same each shot. Good luck!!
     
    Bfh_auto and LoonWulf like this.
  15. wombat13

    wombat13 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,346
    It could be a bedding problem, I suppose, but I'm noticing something similar with multiple rifles. That suggest to me that it's something I'm doing rather than a rifle issue. So far, the targets I've posted are from a .338WM Ruger M77 in laminate stock (the first one) and a .25-06 Savage Axis II (plastic stock).

    These are both hunting rifles (all of mine are). I know the accuracy is good enough, but I'm trying to refine my technique. Also, flyers make it difficult to develop handloads. Difficult to know if the rifle doesn't like the load or if I messed up the shot. Even if I know that I messed up the shot, a flyer means I would have to reload that charge weight and is a waste of time and components.

    Here are a couple targets from my Ruger Hawkeye .300WM. Look at that Federal factory load. Group looks very similar to the factory Nosler BTs in the Savage. Eliminate the horizontal dispersion and I'd be pretty happy with the handload. I've been hunting the last two years with the Federal factory ammo. What I find particularly interesting about these two targets is the "pairing" of shots. Both loads have two pairs of shots that are touching or nearly so. Then there is a fifth that is by itself. I think it is clear that I'm doing something to cause that.
    300WM 180gr Federal PowerShok.jpg 300WM 180gr Nosler BT Handloads.jpg
     
    LoonWulf likes this.
  16. Turkeytider

    Turkeytider Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2021
    Messages:
    61
    Hunting groups vs. target groups. Purpose of the gun is indeed something to consider, IMHO, when looking at groups. In my own case with my .223, I`m looking for " Minute of coyote". Accuracy is more important than absolute precision in a hunting rifle. Again, IMHO.
     
    LoonWulf likes this.
  17. Archie

    Archie Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    3,370
    Location:
    Hastings, Nebraska - the Heartland!
    Shot groups ideally should be (more or less) round. A shot group that is oval (wider than higher, higher than wider or spread out at an angle) indicates something is wrong. Even a shot group as tight as yours. The side to side movement ideally should be eliminated. Normally, an 'inaccurate' firearm will shoot a circular group, but much larger than an 'accurate' arm. Please understand, 'accurate' or 'inaccurate' are relative terms. But the shot group should be circular.

    With a handgun, the causes are much more obvious; flinching, pushing the handgun, yanking (even subtly), 'bucking' and so forth.
    With a rifle, the problem is much more subtle and hidden. Tensing up of the upper body - notably the shooting shoulder - differently for various shots will cause variations in impact site. Tensing of the arms, hands or irregularities while breathing can subtly affect the hits.

    Possibly having someone else watch you might give a clue. Or video yourself shooting and watch yourself for possible quirks.

    Without seeing you shoot in person (I live in Nebraska) that is the total of my thinking.
     
    kidneyboy and LoonWulf like this.
  18. South Prairie Jim

    South Prairie Jim Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2019
    Messages:
    2,906
    Location:
    Montana
    Maybe have a buddy run a few groups for comparison
     
    Demi-human and LoonWulf like this.
  19. GooseGestapo

    GooseGestapo Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    4,855
    What is the trigger pull?
    Off the bat, I question trigger pull. I have a Ruger .22Hornet that would do that until I took the trigger down to 2.5lbs (was ~7lbs).

    Also, when was it built? A pre-M77/MkII made after ‘81 is suspect for the barrel.
    I had a gunsmith friend who purchased a M77 .338wm circa 1983. With his load (300gr Nosler over IMR4350) it wouldn’t shoot tighter than 6” at 100yds and he had an Alaska hunt planned in 6weeks.

    Ruger refused to warranty accuracy at the time! He called a contact at ERShaw and had a contour duplication barrel sent. Received it in 2weeks. Installed it and took rifle/ammo to range. After collating, and verified at 25yds, the first three rounds at 100yds “touched”.
    He took a B&C moose with it and a 10’ bear.
    He sent the Ruger barrel, test groups, and pics of game and copy of E.R.Shaw invoice to Ruger.

    3mos later, article on hunt appeared in an Alaska journal and discussed barrel swap and Ruger accuracy problems.

    He soon received a personal apology letter from none other Bill Ruger! He showed it to me.
    Bill Ruger sent a check for the cost of the E.R.Shaw barrel with no other explanation...

    The 180gr load groups look like what my .338/06 would shoot with a 180gr Nosler B.T. (Adams &Bennet barrel).
    I returned the original.30/06 barrel to it last year as I killed my first deer with it circa 1976.
    It’s a MkX Mauser and with the original barrel (Wilson, I’m told) will shoot sub moa 5-shots.

    The A&B barrel never would shoot better than 2.5moa (5-shots).
     
    LoonWulf likes this.
  20. tactikel

    tactikel Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2009
    Messages:
    1,460
    Location:
    Northeastern Illinois
    Pulling right is hard trigger pull. Practice clean, consistent trigger pull.
     
    Poper and LoonWulf like this.
  21. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    6,436
    Location:
    Hawkeye East
    https://www.thompsontarget.com/scope-alignment-sight-in-9x12-paper-shooting-targets/

    I’ve found that using a good target that can be bracketed and easily seen makes a world of difference. Most of my hunting scopes are still 3-9x or lower in magnification and pin point accuracy hampered by thicker crosshairs that obscure more of the target. That’s something else to consider.

    Ruger 10/22 I believe at 25 yards.
    AA533D7B-1CC2-4773-8A25-01DDB2B1AB0C.jpeg

    Winchester 30-06 at 100 yards.
    6DC96C3F-F569-4C5F-960A-14119E40702D.jpeg
     
    LoonWulf likes this.
  22. Bfh_auto

    Bfh_auto Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2016
    Messages:
    5,150
    Completely agree. Expecting bench accuracy from a hunting rifle that has more free recoil than some people's punches is a bad idea.
    A scope that doesn't allow you to have your head far enough back with said high recoil rifle can induce a flinch.
    I started shooting my 6 pound Whelen using shooting sticks because I don't care what it does from a bench. Neither do the deer I killed with it.
     
    Demi-human and JDGray like this.
  23. Turkeytider

    Turkeytider Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2021
    Messages:
    61
    Shooting a hunting rifle/scope from the bench (zeroing the scope aside ) IMO just shows that the gun is accurate enough, or not, to get the job done with a given hunting load and that any misses will be on you. Having said that, I do enjoy just shooting my .223 for fun with non-hunting rounds to work on precision. I know the gun itself is accurate enough.
     
    Bfh_auto likes this.
  24. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    6,436
    Location:
    Hawkeye East
    I’ll add that I still bench them from time to time, confirming the zero hasn’t moved.
     
  25. South Prairie Jim

    South Prairie Jim Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2019
    Messages:
    2,906
    Location:
    Montana
    Screenshot_20210928-211225_(1).png Here's a little aiming guide that normally helps me get dialed in.;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
    LiveLife, Demi-human, WVRJ and 5 others like this.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice