Turkeytider
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That`s how I`ve seen it described. I`ve about decided that whatever one can do to minimize contact and pressure points on the rifle, the better. it`s kind of like getting out of the gun`s way.
Most likely cause of horizontal flyers?
- Thread starter wombat13
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That`s how I`ve seen it described. I`ve about decided that whatever one can do to minimize contact and pressure points on the rifle, the better. it`s kind of like getting out of the gun`s way.
Yes, but I'm not sure what else Taliv means. I normally wrap the the thumb of my trigger hand around the stock below/behind the receiver. It kind of points toward the target.
Well, I'm not really a target shooter. My focus is on hunting, but I enjoy tinkering with handloads and I like to push myself to make ammo with the greatest accuracy I can. I have to use a grip that will work well in hunting situations and not wrapping my trigger hand thumb around the stock doesn't sound like a secure grip in the field.
from a supported position,
when you build your position (training/learning, not on a loaded round when you're actually going to shoot), start by putting the 90* bend in your finger and placing the first pad on the trigger. Then, move your hand to the stock, and wherever it lands try to figure out how to grip it with just enough force to hold your hand where it needs to be so that you don't move your trigger finger. your steering input should be with your support hand, and all your trigger hand does is keep your trigger finger stable.
if you're shooting offhand, hunting, sure, you may need a firm purchase on the rifle.
from 223rem to 300nm, i don't change my grip. it's not a function of recoil
when you build your position (training/learning, not on a loaded round when you're actually going to shoot), start by putting the 90* bend in your finger and placing the first pad on the trigger. Then, move your hand to the stock, and wherever it lands try to figure out how to grip it with just enough force to hold your hand where it needs to be so that you don't move your trigger finger. your steering input should be with your support hand, and all your trigger hand does is keep your trigger finger stable.
if you're shooting offhand, hunting, sure, you may need a firm purchase on the rifle.
from 223rem to 300nm, i don't change my grip. it's not a function of recoil
So, I think I owe all of you who commented an update and a couple of photos. Based on the comments on this thread, I focused on positioning my rifle so the natural point of aim was on the bull and then focusing on pressing the trigger straight back with the pad of my finger tip. Here are two targets. The first shows test loads of 150 gr TTSX with six different charges of IMR 4831.
These were fired "round robin." I fired one round from each test charge, then the second round from each, etc. I waited at least 5 minutes between shots and cleaned the rifle between each firing to minimize variables that could be affecting group size. The three light charges (labeled "3", "4", and "5") have elongated groups with 3 and 5 having a lot of horizontal spread. The groups tighten up as the powder charge gets heavier and the three heavier charge loads have "roundish" group shapes. The heaviest charge (labeled "8" on the test target) had the smallest three shot test group measuring right at 1" max spread. Since I fired these round robin, I don't think that the weird shape of the light charge loads was the result of my shooting.
I then loaded up 32 rounds (because that's how many prepped brass I had) of the heaviest charge. I went to the range today to sight in with that load for hunting next week. Here is the target.
Top left is the first shot sighter. I adjusted the crosshairs from the bull to the hole. The three shot group in the center measures 3/4" max spread! I'm quite happy with that. That's two 3-shot groups in a row (the only groups I've fired with this load) that are inside of 1". That's from a stock Ruger Hawkeye. This rifle has been picky with bullets, but it loves Barnes bullets over a max/near max charge of IMR 4831.
The upper right hole is after a couple clicks of windage adjustment. I would have liked to continue adjusting the windage, but I get tired firing too many rounds from the .300WM in one sitting. I also didn't have a lot of time today (work tends to get in the way of fun). In any case, it looks like my windage is now 1/4" to 1/2" off at 100 yards and I've only ever taken one shot on game beyond 200 yards, so good enough for now. These are sighted in a little less than 1.5" high at 100 yards, so I should be just about zeroed at 200.
Bottom left hole is one shot to confirm my Savage Axis II in .25-06 is still ready to knock em dead with 100 gr Partitions. I always take a back up rifle to hunting camp.
Thanks to everyone for the tips on how to improve my shooting.
These were fired "round robin." I fired one round from each test charge, then the second round from each, etc. I waited at least 5 minutes between shots and cleaned the rifle between each firing to minimize variables that could be affecting group size. The three light charges (labeled "3", "4", and "5") have elongated groups with 3 and 5 having a lot of horizontal spread. The groups tighten up as the powder charge gets heavier and the three heavier charge loads have "roundish" group shapes. The heaviest charge (labeled "8" on the test target) had the smallest three shot test group measuring right at 1" max spread. Since I fired these round robin, I don't think that the weird shape of the light charge loads was the result of my shooting.
I then loaded up 32 rounds (because that's how many prepped brass I had) of the heaviest charge. I went to the range today to sight in with that load for hunting next week. Here is the target.
Top left is the first shot sighter. I adjusted the crosshairs from the bull to the hole. The three shot group in the center measures 3/4" max spread! I'm quite happy with that. That's two 3-shot groups in a row (the only groups I've fired with this load) that are inside of 1". That's from a stock Ruger Hawkeye. This rifle has been picky with bullets, but it loves Barnes bullets over a max/near max charge of IMR 4831.
The upper right hole is after a couple clicks of windage adjustment. I would have liked to continue adjusting the windage, but I get tired firing too many rounds from the .300WM in one sitting. I also didn't have a lot of time today (work tends to get in the way of fun). In any case, it looks like my windage is now 1/4" to 1/2" off at 100 yards and I've only ever taken one shot on game beyond 200 yards, so good enough for now. These are sighted in a little less than 1.5" high at 100 yards, so I should be just about zeroed at 200.
Bottom left hole is one shot to confirm my Savage Axis II in .25-06 is still ready to knock em dead with 100 gr Partitions. I always take a back up rifle to hunting camp.
Thanks to everyone for the tips on how to improve my shooting.
JFrank
Member
It wouldn't be comfortable for me either.
JFrank
Member
Im confused" are you showing us a round robin ladder with charges from 41 gr to 83 gr in one grain increments ? All shot from a 300 WM ?
it's pretty comfy. try it. it's not the only way, but it's helpful for some.
No, the labels are the charge number and the shot number. I put my test loads in a 10 round x 10 round ammo box. The charge number is the column in my ammo box. The first two columns of the ammo box have one shot each: one at the start load and one just above the start load to test for safety. So "31" is the first shot from the charge that is in column 3 of my ammo box. "32" is the second shot of that charge weight, etc.
In this case:
Charge "3" was 72.2 gr of IMR 4831
Charge "4" 73.0 gr
Charge "5" 73.7 gr
Charge "6" 74.5 gr
Charge "7" 75.2 gr
Charge "8" 76.0 gr
Those look like pistol grip style stocks. I'm not sure how that would work with the stock on my Hawkeye.View attachment 1037167
View attachment 1037168
it's pretty comfy. try it. it's not the only way, but it's helpful for some.
yeah, even though the average guy is going to grab the pistol grip like a broom handle, wrapping their thumb around to the opposite side, a lot of people prefer a thumb forward grip, which is very comfortable on a traditional style wood or fiberglass stock where it's impossible to wrap your thumb around. i'm talking, like a mcmillan A5 or manners
if you want to take it a step further, try this: position the gun and get on target where you're almost ready to fire. take your firing hand off the gun. put your thumb on the back of the trigger guard. put your trigger finger on the trigger (first pad). Pinch your finger and thumb together to fire, without your hand touching the stock at all.
So I just tried it with my Savage Axis. It is surprisingly comfortable! Thanks for the suggestion. Now, given how rarely I'm able to get to the range, let's see how long it takes me to retrain myself. I'll start the training with dry firing at home.
the other thing to think about is rapid bolt manipulation. think about where your thumb is when you lift the bolt, run it back and forward, and then cam it down, then as move your finger to the trigger.
sometimes it's good to use your thumb on top of the stock instead of forward for two reasons. one is that the cocking force can be overcome with your hand muscle instead of your entire arm, which disturbs your body and position less. the other is that if the cocking force is more than the weight of the back of the rifle, your thumb on top keeps the whole rifle from lifting up.
see if you can put your thumb on one spot on the stock and run the bolt and dry fire without moving it.
sometimes it's good to use your thumb on top of the stock instead of forward for two reasons. one is that the cocking force can be overcome with your hand muscle instead of your entire arm, which disturbs your body and position less. the other is that if the cocking force is more than the weight of the back of the rifle, your thumb on top keeps the whole rifle from lifting up.
see if you can put your thumb on one spot on the stock and run the bolt and dry fire without moving it.
JFrank
Member
So multiple ladders with seperate points of aim for each one?
No. These are 6 different charge weights shot at six different aiming points (one for each charge weight), not multiple ladders. The shots labeled 31, 32, 33 are all 72.2 gr of powder. I've just labeled which shot they were (1st, 2nd, 3rd), so 31 is Charge 3 (72.2 gr of powder), Shot 1. 32 is Charge 3 shot 2. 33 is Charge 3 shot 3. These hand loads were hitting about 5" high and a couple inches left, so you can figure out the aiming point for each.
The Savage I first tried this on is a right hand bolt and I'm left handed. That seems fine. I tried thumb forward with my left hand Ruger and it puts my thumb right behind the bolt. Wonder if it will jam my thumb.
barnfrog
Member
I see your triangulation lines on the targets, which is how I used to figure out my group centers. I highly recommend Gordon's Reloading Tool, which is a free download. Among its many features is a tool that let's you calculate group center from a picture of your target. Very handy and simple to use.
Regarding grip, my groups from my Winchester XPR improved noticeably when I switched to a thumb forward grip. YMMV.
Turkeytider
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With my Savage 110 .223 I just lay my thumb right on top next to the safety and lightly press the stock into my shoulder with the other three fingers. I feel as though I`m affecting the gun much less than I was.
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