Most over rated pistol
- Thread starter Lobotomy Boy
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MrAcheson
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Boats,
You assume that all salesmen and advertisers are created equal, which they aren't. Some are idiots and their customers pay the price. Have you ever seen an engineer sell his own product? Its not pretty (and I'm an engineer mind you).
You also assume a well informed consumer. To the well informed consumer salesmanship becomes transparent and it becomes a matter of taste and choice. However the average consumer is by definition not the well-informed consumer (since "average" is less than "well" and potentially very much less if the population skews towards "poor"). So we get back to salesmanship and business acumen being as important as innovation and technical merit.
As for the rest, yes a man's choice of weapon is important. But on a more day to day level so is his car. How many people do you know that chose their car solely based on its styling without regard to performance/reliability/etc? And they drive that every day and bet their lives on it in foul weather or bad neighborhoods just as much as on any handgun. Do you honestly think the average shooter (keeping mind that you are an above-average shooter) really looks into their firearms all that much? How many guns have you seen for sale with less than a box of ammo put through them? Its not that uncommon and it should tell you something about a lot of shooters.
If you want more down to earth examples read about early repeating arms inventors. Spencer had a great product that went nowhere after the war because Spencer couldn't sell it on his market despite its successful war record. Winchester didn't have too much trouble selling his guns though, and he was shirt maker who didn't know anything about guns. Remember the name of the guy that invented the bored-through revolver cylinder? I can't, but I know the nature of his contract with S&W bankrupted him with legal fees despite the fact that he held the most important handgun patent of the late 19th century. There are probably whole books written about inventors who didn't have the business ability to sell a superior product.
I'm not knocking a 1911. I've shot them. I like them. I shoot them better than anything else I have found yet and I am planning to buy my first shortly. But take a good look at the gun for second. There are reasons more recently designed firearms don't use the plunger tubes, toggle links, and locking lugs of the 1911 design. There are reasons (other than patents) JMB didn't design many of these parts into the hipower. The 1911 makes for a great enthusiasts gun. You can take it apart and, with some kitchen table smithing, trick it out to your tastes. Barrel lock up a little loose? Drop in an oversized toggle link or a tighter spec bushing to get it where you want it. Many of those additional parts that add to the fitting and machining cost of a 1911 are part of the guns inherent charm. This is what will keep the 1911 in the handgun market for the next century when newer designs have come and gone. Its a great gun to shoot and a great gun to work on as a professional or amateur.
But for a service weapon, the 1911 is unfortunately outdated. Lots of 1911s don't work properly out of the box. Granted its a small percentage of the population, but you really don't hear the same complaints about Glocks (or Sigs or HKs) for instance. I don't like Glocks much, but their market is huge and relatively unskilled in comparison to the 1911 market. Yet, aside from the occasion KB! with reloads, you rarely hear about a glock owner who can't get their gun to work properly or has trouble with reliability and/or poor accuracy. As much as I dislike their ergonomics and trigger, this is to their credit.
I'm really looking forward to seeing what happens to the 1911s cult status when the AWB sunsets and new hicap handguns become marketable in the US again. I think the whole 1911 industry is going to have a bit of a shakeup.
You assume that all salesmen and advertisers are created equal, which they aren't. Some are idiots and their customers pay the price. Have you ever seen an engineer sell his own product? Its not pretty (and I'm an engineer mind you).
You also assume a well informed consumer. To the well informed consumer salesmanship becomes transparent and it becomes a matter of taste and choice. However the average consumer is by definition not the well-informed consumer (since "average" is less than "well" and potentially very much less if the population skews towards "poor"). So we get back to salesmanship and business acumen being as important as innovation and technical merit.
As for the rest, yes a man's choice of weapon is important. But on a more day to day level so is his car. How many people do you know that chose their car solely based on its styling without regard to performance/reliability/etc? And they drive that every day and bet their lives on it in foul weather or bad neighborhoods just as much as on any handgun. Do you honestly think the average shooter (keeping mind that you are an above-average shooter) really looks into their firearms all that much? How many guns have you seen for sale with less than a box of ammo put through them? Its not that uncommon and it should tell you something about a lot of shooters.
If you want more down to earth examples read about early repeating arms inventors. Spencer had a great product that went nowhere after the war because Spencer couldn't sell it on his market despite its successful war record. Winchester didn't have too much trouble selling his guns though, and he was shirt maker who didn't know anything about guns. Remember the name of the guy that invented the bored-through revolver cylinder? I can't, but I know the nature of his contract with S&W bankrupted him with legal fees despite the fact that he held the most important handgun patent of the late 19th century. There are probably whole books written about inventors who didn't have the business ability to sell a superior product.
I'm not knocking a 1911. I've shot them. I like them. I shoot them better than anything else I have found yet and I am planning to buy my first shortly. But take a good look at the gun for second. There are reasons more recently designed firearms don't use the plunger tubes, toggle links, and locking lugs of the 1911 design. There are reasons (other than patents) JMB didn't design many of these parts into the hipower. The 1911 makes for a great enthusiasts gun. You can take it apart and, with some kitchen table smithing, trick it out to your tastes. Barrel lock up a little loose? Drop in an oversized toggle link or a tighter spec bushing to get it where you want it. Many of those additional parts that add to the fitting and machining cost of a 1911 are part of the guns inherent charm. This is what will keep the 1911 in the handgun market for the next century when newer designs have come and gone. Its a great gun to shoot and a great gun to work on as a professional or amateur.
But for a service weapon, the 1911 is unfortunately outdated. Lots of 1911s don't work properly out of the box. Granted its a small percentage of the population, but you really don't hear the same complaints about Glocks (or Sigs or HKs) for instance. I don't like Glocks much, but their market is huge and relatively unskilled in comparison to the 1911 market. Yet, aside from the occasion KB! with reloads, you rarely hear about a glock owner who can't get their gun to work properly or has trouble with reliability and/or poor accuracy. As much as I dislike their ergonomics and trigger, this is to their credit.
I'm really looking forward to seeing what happens to the 1911s cult status when the AWB sunsets and new hicap handguns become marketable in the US again. I think the whole 1911 industry is going to have a bit of a shakeup.
I've always thought the CZ pistols were amazingly overrated. They never seem to work as reliably as a modern combat pistol should work. I had always read about them being particular with the ammo you feed them.
About a year or two ago, I was visiting with a fellow gun enthusiast while on job one day. He showed me a recently purchased CZ .40 and told me it was a fine gun, then told me how it needed to stay really clean in order for it to function properly. Please. When one can choose between the wonderfully high tech and boringly reliable/durable USPs, Glocks, and SIGs, and the OVERRATED all-steel Browning offspring, why would one opt for the gun that doesn't always work well???
Gimme a PURELY functional USP, Glock, or SIG over a Browning or 1911 anyday. In the shooting sports, "hype" = style, and "quality" = function and reliability.
About a year or two ago, I was visiting with a fellow gun enthusiast while on job one day. He showed me a recently purchased CZ .40 and told me it was a fine gun, then told me how it needed to stay really clean in order for it to function properly. Please. When one can choose between the wonderfully high tech and boringly reliable/durable USPs, Glocks, and SIGs, and the OVERRATED all-steel Browning offspring, why would one opt for the gun that doesn't always work well???
Gimme a PURELY functional USP, Glock, or SIG over a Browning or 1911 anyday. In the shooting sports, "hype" = style, and "quality" = function and reliability.
Another vote for the USP...I have rented them and was thoroughly unimpressed.
P7M8 ? eccentric, but kinda fun, shoots really well.
Sigs? Good guns, if you like the action design.
Glock? Glech...
Rugers, humble but serviceable
BHP? elegant...some limitations, but nice.
Smith autos? pretty good, usually
1911's? The buzz on Kimbers is increasingly bad, so you can't really call them over-rated. I have one Springfield, and six Colts. I have them for a reason.
P7M8 ? eccentric, but kinda fun, shoots really well.
Sigs? Good guns, if you like the action design.
Glock? Glech...
Rugers, humble but serviceable
BHP? elegant...some limitations, but nice.
Smith autos? pretty good, usually
1911's? The buzz on Kimbers is increasingly bad, so you can't really call them over-rated. I have one Springfield, and six Colts. I have them for a reason.
Sean Smith
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Funny thing is, "in the shooting sports," the 1911 dominates every class that it is legal in, at least in America. In Europe, alot of top IPSC shooters use the other gun you were bashing, the CZ (and its clones).
Terribly compelling argument you've got there.
1holegrouper
Member
Makarov's and BHP's
Well, that's simple. The 1911 platforms are typically more accurate and easier to shoot because you can trick them out in a variety of fashions. People like that degree of hobbying and modification in their activities. Plus, there is a real snobbery towards "plastic" guns.
However, the immense cult following of the 1911 is not enough to render it more functional, reliable, and durable over these other, newer designs. A USP is more fun to shoot, anyways: since when is 7 better than 10 or 12?
As far as the CZ is concerned, I suppose any gun will funtion well enough in competition when you find the right ammo for it. Not my cup of tea, really, to be limited like that. And I really don't care for designs that demand strict maintenance in order for them to function properly.
I think the CZ 75 P-01 is way overrated. I looks like it was machined by a group of Dodo birds with a box of nails. The finish on the pistol could be done better by myself with a dollar can of spray paint for the the Dollar Store.(the paint would probably be more durable anyway) You couldn't hit water with this thing even if you were Tom Hanks on his homemade boat in the ocean with no land in sight. Oh, and they call this a semi-automatic pistol. More like single shot pull back pistol. And all this hype about it being Nato approved. HA. Does anyone actually know what Nato does let alone what it stands for? Didn't think so. I am sorry to all the P-01 owners for letting you know that you have such a piece of crap but its ok. I forgive. I you wish I will even have the pistol properly distroyed if you will send it to me. I will even do this free of charge. (I'm so nice) You can email me at [email protected] .
I don't understand your logic as to why newer designs would be any more functional, reliable, or durable then the 1911, or why mag capacity would have any bearing on your argument. Please explain your reasoning, inquireing minds want to know!
I realize you may be using your friends .40 as a reference, but what do you mean by limited? I have a CZ75 & PCR and shoot strictly reloads in these guns, from 115 to 147 grains, with loads where the casings fall out of the guns at my feet to where they go a easy 15 feet away. I've used Ramline, Promag, Mec-Gar and factory mags and to date I've had one failure to feed in my CZ75, and a bump to the slide put her into battery. I'm still amazed sometimes how these two just shoot anything I feed them, and the only time I clean them is after a shooting session.
Just so you know, I also have a CZ83 that has given me some FTF problems, although some malfunctions were due to a weak slidestop spring, that has since been replaced.
If you don't like the CZ thats fine with me, but please don't base your comments on one gun. Personally, Glocks do absolutely nothing for me, but I know they are very reliable pistols and if people shoot them well, more power to them.
Lobotomy Boy
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What I've learned from this thread:
1. For every gun there is someone who considers that gun over rated.
2. Except for the truly antiquated Luger, which suffers from being an early autoloader without a locking breach and modern bolt system, every gun design has its proponents.
3. The 1911 design has some aspects that require more owner involvement than more modern designs, sort of like Ducati's Desmodromic engines. I agree that these design aspects could earn the 1911 the label "antiquated."
4. I really, really want a 1911 anyway. Judging from the posts here, the Springfield Mil Spec seems like a good choice if buying new.
5. Kimber quality may have declined in recent years.
6. I need to add CZ to my list of brands I'd consider purchasing.
7. HK USPs are great guns, but their prices are generally higher than many people are willing to pay.
8. The worst thing about HK USPs is that I can't afford one.
9. We need to add a Smilie that looks like a monkey engaged in autoerotic activity for when the conversation gets too heated. It's hard to get too upset when you are faced with a self-pleasuring monkey.
1. For every gun there is someone who considers that gun over rated.
2. Except for the truly antiquated Luger, which suffers from being an early autoloader without a locking breach and modern bolt system, every gun design has its proponents.
3. The 1911 design has some aspects that require more owner involvement than more modern designs, sort of like Ducati's Desmodromic engines. I agree that these design aspects could earn the 1911 the label "antiquated."
4. I really, really want a 1911 anyway. Judging from the posts here, the Springfield Mil Spec seems like a good choice if buying new.
5. Kimber quality may have declined in recent years.
6. I need to add CZ to my list of brands I'd consider purchasing.
7. HK USPs are great guns, but their prices are generally higher than many people are willing to pay.
8. The worst thing about HK USPs is that I can't afford one.
9. We need to add a Smilie that looks like a monkey engaged in autoerotic activity for when the conversation gets too heated. It's hard to get too upset when you are faced with a self-pleasuring monkey.
Tamara
Senior Member
When the 7, assisted by a crisp, light trigger, flawless ergonomics, and a low bore axis, hit right where you want them to and let you go home alive or with the trophy.
Patent Works
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- Feb 18, 2004
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- 57
OVERRATED, not overpriced
Most posts here are criticizing excellent guns for being overpriced, not for being overrated.
There is a difference.
Most posts here are criticizing excellent guns for being overpriced, not for being overrated.
There is a difference.
Lobotomy Boy
Member
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- Feb 16, 2004
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The pro-1911 camp has given me wood to go out and buy a 1911. Doing some research, it seems that Charles Daly sells some nice guns at decent prices. How does the Charles Daly rate in the grand pantheon of 1911s?
Also all you pro-Sig folks made some convincing arguments. My wife is in the market for a gun to use in a CCW class. I wanted her to get a 9mm because that is what we usually shoot at the range and I'd prefer not to have to pick up multiple calibers of ammo. She leaned towards a revolver for aesthetic reasons but Taurus is the only company still making a small-framed concealed hammer revolver in 9mm and it is hard to find. I showed her a Sig 239, which was originally designed for females and males with small hands, and she wanted it.
Also all you pro-Sig folks made some convincing arguments. My wife is in the market for a gun to use in a CCW class. I wanted her to get a 9mm because that is what we usually shoot at the range and I'd prefer not to have to pick up multiple calibers of ammo. She leaned towards a revolver for aesthetic reasons but Taurus is the only company still making a small-framed concealed hammer revolver in 9mm and it is hard to find. I showed her a Sig 239, which was originally designed for females and males with small hands, and she wanted it.
Tamara
Senior Member
In all honesty? Near the bottom.
Still and all, though, even a Chuck Daly is a joyous experience if it's your first exposure to a 1911 trigger.
Tamara
Senior Member
Greg Bell,
Well, since we're spreading hype and mythology:
At least it will save him from clogged gas ports, busted striker retaining washers, bent striker safety springs that cause slamfires, overpriced mags, lousy service, a lack of holsters, a finish that will rust before your eyes, spongy triggers, flimsy internals, and a weenie caliber.
Oh, wait... scratch all that... I'm not the one on a jihad.
(Tell you what: post a pic of your P7 like this, and we'll call it a draw. )
Well, since we're spreading hype and mythology:
At least it will save him from clogged gas ports, busted striker retaining washers, bent striker safety springs that cause slamfires, overpriced mags, lousy service, a lack of holsters, a finish that will rust before your eyes, spongy triggers, flimsy internals, and a weenie caliber.
Oh, wait... scratch all that... I'm not the one on a jihad.
(Tell you what: post a pic of your P7 like this, and we'll call it a draw.
)Lobotomy Boy
Member
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Looks like it is time to insert the Onanistic monkey icon again.
Tamara
Senior Member
Lobotomy Boy,
Don't forget that $2,000+ custom 1911's are hard to clean after you stomp them into the mud.
Don't forget that $2,000+ custom 1911's are hard to clean after you stomp them into the mud.
Actually my two .45 ACP Colts that are primarily defensive pieces work quite nicely with 8 round mags + 1 in the chamber = 9 shots.
Make it a .38 Super, and you can run 10+1, making it into an 11 shot 9mm +P+. Make it a 10mm, I now have a 10 shot .357 magnum.
Tamara,
"At least it will save him from clogged gas ports, busted striker retaining washers, bent striker safety springs that cause slamfires, overpriced mags, lousy service, a lack of holsters, a finish that will rust before your eyes, spongy triggers, flimsy internals, and a weenie caliber. "
...well, there is that...
"At least it will save him from clogged gas ports, busted striker retaining washers, bent striker safety springs that cause slamfires, overpriced mags, lousy service, a lack of holsters, a finish that will rust before your eyes, spongy triggers, flimsy internals, and a weenie caliber. "
...well, there is that...
Quack
Member
i'd have to say USP's. had 1 didn't like it, gave it another try a year later, still didn't like it. it felt like a toy, more toy-like than a Glock. guns half the price have better triggers than the USP.
Tag
Member
I've shot a few different Kimbers, and I'd have to say one of them was WAY over rated in that it could not eat a box of ammo w/o two or three failures. Another kimber which costed about $200 less has been flawless.
IMO any gun that is accurate out of the factory, goes off every time you pull the trigger, cycles with all ammo, can be shot for hundreds of thousands of rounds w/o any major parts failures, and looks cool, can't be that over rated.
For everyone who insists on calling polymer framed guns toys or junk I would ask them to look at how much some of the more advanced polymers cost as opposed to steel. It's not cheap
The frame/slide fit on my USP is perfect as is the slide/barrel lock up.
Anyhoo, I'm a big fan of combat Tupperware, and the two examples I've owned thus far have been flawless.
IMO any gun that is accurate out of the factory, goes off every time you pull the trigger, cycles with all ammo, can be shot for hundreds of thousands of rounds w/o any major parts failures, and looks cool, can't be that over rated.
For everyone who insists on calling polymer framed guns toys or junk I would ask them to look at how much some of the more advanced polymers cost as opposed to steel. It's not cheap
The frame/slide fit on my USP is perfect as is the slide/barrel lock up.
Anyhoo, I'm a big fan of combat Tupperware, and the two examples I've owned thus far have been flawless.
There are very few guns that I dislike. I think some are over rated, but they are still fine guns. I enjoy plastic pistols and consider them to be very reliable, accurate, functional handguns. As I mentioned previously, any time someone asks me about buying a new defensive type handgun I mention the Glock.
That being said, I find some of the stuff found on the errornet to be so ridiculous that it is sad. The 1911 is the standard by which all other pistols have been judged for going on 100 years. Up until the advent of the internet it has been universally accepted to be one of, if not THE most reliable autoloading handgun ever made. Now we read threads like this where we find out that the design requires strict maintainance in order to function. This is beyond ridiculous and is a complete and total load of crap. Does this mean the 1911 is the best pistol made ? No. In my opinion there are lots of great pistols out there and your personal preference will decide what works for you, but let's not start handing out information that is totally without merit to try to make our faviorte sound better than it is. Does this mean that all 1911s are of equal quality ? No again. Many have strayed from what made the 1911 great. Does this mean the design is flawed ? No for a third time.
The 1911 fought in the worst possible conditions from the muddy trenches of the first world war, through the sands of Iwo Jima, the jungles of Vietnam and everything in between. It has a proven track record of reliability second to none under real combat condtions. You can make all the wild speculations you want, but the proof is in the pudding and the 1911 has provided that proof for longer than any of us have been alive.
That being said, I find some of the stuff found on the errornet to be so ridiculous that it is sad. The 1911 is the standard by which all other pistols have been judged for going on 100 years. Up until the advent of the internet it has been universally accepted to be one of, if not THE most reliable autoloading handgun ever made. Now we read threads like this where we find out that the design requires strict maintainance in order to function. This is beyond ridiculous and is a complete and total load of crap. Does this mean the 1911 is the best pistol made ? No. In my opinion there are lots of great pistols out there and your personal preference will decide what works for you, but let's not start handing out information that is totally without merit to try to make our faviorte sound better than it is. Does this mean that all 1911s are of equal quality ? No again. Many have strayed from what made the 1911 great. Does this mean the design is flawed ? No for a third time.
The 1911 fought in the worst possible conditions from the muddy trenches of the first world war, through the sands of Iwo Jima, the jungles of Vietnam and everything in between. It has a proven track record of reliability second to none under real combat condtions. You can make all the wild speculations you want, but the proof is in the pudding and the 1911 has provided that proof for longer than any of us have been alive.
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