Mounting a MG on an airplane

[NoAlibi]

I'm retired and maybe I have too much time on my hands but...

I love machine guns and airplanes and I thought I might combine the two.

I build experimental aircraft and I have this Cassutt Racer. I didn't build this particular airplane, but FAA regulations allow me to modify it.

I have a Ruger AC-556 that is very compact and it would be perfect to put into a streamlined pod and attach it to a wing using a pylon - much the same as rockets are attached to fighter aircraft.

Our shooting club has a 40+ acre range in a sparsely populated area that is usually deserted and I'm sure that since machine guns are shot there no one outside of the range would be concerned.

Would I be violating any BATFE rules? Thanks.....Doc

 

[kimbershot]

there are old pilots and bold pilots--you know the rest.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I know a warbird collector who wanted his F4F Wildcat to be as authentic as possible so he looked into putting real guns back in the thing.

Several problems cropped up.

1) Crossing state lines is pretty difficult because you have to get approval from ATF every time. A pod would probably be easily removed so that would be easier.

2) How would you secure the gun at the destination? You can't walk away from the airplane really. Pod helps that I guess, if it comes off quick.

3) It may not be legal to actually fire it from the air. Many states regulate than in their hunting laws. Also, depending on where you fired the guns, you might have to catch the brass which might be difficult.

He abandoned the plan but I don't believe he ever found anything in gun laws or FAA regulations that would have actually prevented it. I wouldn't want to be your liability insurance carrier....

That was all pre 9/11 too. I cannot imagine the attention you would get doing it today

Seems like Mike Dillon has something mounted on his UH-1 if I remember.

 

[Al Thompson]

Read an article years ago of a guy in South Africa who mounted a pair of Browning A-5s on his ultra light. Seems that some sort of goose was a pest species.

He wanted to have aerial goose engagements.

 

[rcmodel]

This sounds like a real bad idea!

A 40+ acre range is awful dang small when your gun platform is whizzing by at 248 MPH!!

Besides that, how do you know with absolute certainty the range is totally deserted?

Some dude in cammo clothes might be hiding behind a tree taking a whiz when you get there.

rc

 

[TexasRifleman]

This sounds like a real bad idea!

Oh yeah, it's a really bad idea, he just asked if it was Legal I mean, it could be done safely I suppose but the risks are pretty high it seems.

 

[DWFan]

I don't see much difference in what he wants to do and sending up a helicopter loaded with a group of individuals armed with semi-auto rifles.
IMO neither is a good idea, but that's just me. Legal? No idea, but I'd expect the ATF and DHS to hassle you constantly. Neat looking plane though.

 

[NoAlibi]

kimbershot: "there are old pilots and bold pilots--you know the rest"

I did the "bold" part as a Marine Corps pilot in Southeast Asia (mostly Cambodia and Laos) after mustering out of the Corps I had to turn my attention away from flying to more mundane things like completing school and making a career. Five years ago I rekindled the love of flying after a 35 year hiatus, so that's how I got the "old" part. Now it seems I'm hell bent on making that adage a myth for me!

rcmodel: "A 40+ acre range is awful dang small when your gun platform is whizzing by at 248 MPH!!"

I modified my Cassutt for aerobatics by raising the the vertical stabilizer and rudder and bracing the horizontal stabilizer so it won't make the speeds of the Reno racers do in my class. Mine will do about 225 mph. I thought I'd keep the speed down around 150 mph and be descending steeply to avoid ricochets. My question to you is how did you know the speed specs on the Cassutt?

rcmodel: "Besides that, how do you know with absolute certainty the range is totally deserted?"

I already thought about that. I planned to have one of my shooting buddies at the range and give him my hand held aviation transceiver and communicate on a plane-to-plane frequency so we can keep each other apprised of the conditions.

TexasRifleman - I wouldn't be crossing state lines so getting permission is not a concern in this case, but would be if I went to another range I belong to in another state. I know that the gun must be in my possession or securely locked up if I part company with it and I would comply with that. As for post 9-11 and the DHS you've got me there. To tell the truth, given the current rulings by the BATFE and DHS, I'd be afraid to pass gas while wearing thermal underwear for fear of being accused of using an unregistered silencer!

This would not be a regular thing, but just something to have fun with a time or two - nothing more (sorry about that for the EOTWAWKI guys).

 

[Mike1234567]

Sorry but that image looks like a model.

 

[NoAlibi]

Just rude and not High Road

Mike1234567: "Sorry but that image looks like a model."

Not sorry, but you are totally wrong. I take offense to your statement without offering any proof other than giving your uninformed opinion.

This is my airplane and if you look closely at the picture you should have noticed, since you are so knowledgable, that the vertical stabilizer and rudder are in fact higher than any model I know of and you should have noticed that the horizontal stabilizer has been braced with struts, again, unlike any model or other Cassutt Racer that I know of.

Perhaps you can share your erudite opinion with some verifiable facts. Lacking that you should keep your rude opinions to yourself.....Doc

 

[Mike1234567]

I didn't intend to offend but it still looks like a model given the angle at which the photo was taken. Please forgive my unedumacated ignerntz.

ETA: It's a darned pretty plane either way.

 

[Justin]

I believe that Mike Dillon of Dillon reloading press fame has some aircraft with mounted machineguns on them.

I don't know the legalities under which those aircraft are allowed to exist, however.


For what it's worth, this is officially the most interesting thing that's been posted on THR.

 

[Mot45acp]

Doesn't Ronnie Barrett have a plane with some Ma Duces bounted to it? Maybe get in touch with him and ask about it.

 

[BADUNAME37]

Are there any FAA Laws besides any ATF Laws that may be in place against this kind of thing?

 

[Sky]

I did the "bold" part as a Marine Corps pilot in Southeast Asia (mostly Cambodia and Laos) after mustering out of the Corps

OV-10s or A1s?

Mike 1234567 don't feel bad a Cassutt Racer looks like a model when standing next to one. Neat fast fun airplane.

 

[Mike1234567]

Sky... are these really that small/short???

 

[armoredman]

Might need a beta mag for that AC-556, a 30 round mag will go FAST, with no way to reload without landing.
I heard the same thing, that Mike Dillon has mounted aircraft NFA firearm, but lacking the funds to be allowed to merely LOOK at either aircraft or NFA, I haven't the foggiest clue how to do it. I would be interested to know how it might be done, if anyone has the answer?

 

[Sky]

For my 6'2" frame it was more snug than a June bug in a thimble but they are experimental and can be made to their owners specifications and size. The one I was familiar with was not made for me.

 

[Mike1234567]

So these are about 3-4 feet tall at the top of the canopy?

 

[Cosmoline]

I second the idea of asking those who may have done it. Also you will need to consult a lawyer with knowledge of both the FAR's and NFA who can clear the way. This is not something to do because nobody on THR can find a specific rule saying you can't do it. Security Aviation up here got busted big time for even leaving the mounts for rocket launchers on jets. I realize you are NFA OK right now, but the case does highlight the "ton of bricks" approach taken by the feds when firearms and aircraft come together.

Insurance is another consideration.

Aside from all these considerations, is it even possible to follow the four rules in an aircraft with a simple gun mount and trigger switch? It seems like there would need to be an additional safety feature to go hot before pushing the button fired the thing. Or are you literally reaching out the window to shoot it?

Assuming this plan can be legally implemented, what about using the ocean as the range? It's less likely to upset nearby subdivisions ;-)

 

[Jim K]

The idea would seem to involve so many areas that you might never be able to get a real answer, but it would not be just the NFA.

As some folks mentioned, the FAA could get involved, also local hunting and shooting laws (like siting of a range and backstop requirements), etc. If there is not an existing law, I bet the county board would pass one ten microseconds after the first firing pass.

Jim

 

[taliv]

sounds like a lot of fun! but 40 ac is waaaaay too small to do this on. i'm thinking more like 4000 ac


you know, mounting a 22lr on a model helo is more my budget, and something i've always wanted to do

 

[Trebor]

Mike1234567: "Sorry but that image looks like a model."

Not sorry, but you are totally wrong. I take offense to your statement without offering any proof other than giving your uninformed opinion.

This is my airplane and if you look closely at the picture you should have noticed, since you are so knowledgable, that the vertical stabilizer and rudder are in fact higher than any model I know of and you should have noticed that the horizontal stabilizer has been braced with struts, again, unlike any model or other Cassutt Racer that I know of.

Perhaps you can share your erudite opinion with some verifiable facts. Lacking that you should keep your rude opinions to yourself.....Doc

No need to jump all over Mike. I was thinking the same thing myself.

It's just that from the angle the photo was taken, and the lack of anything to give a scale reference (like a person), it does look a lot like those shots model makers take to make models look more "real."

No one is saying that it is *is* a model, just that the shot makes it "look" like a model. It's just a an artifact of the angle, composition, lack of object to add scale, etc.

We aren't questioning your honesty, just making an observation on the photograph.

 

[Devonai]

Legal or not, you'll never hit anything unless you either mount two weapons and set the convergence to a known distance, or mount one weapon as close to the centerline as possible - ideally through the propeller hub.

 

[Chindo18Z]

Perhaps the State and/or Federal regulations governing hunting from helicopters apply here...

I know that's legally done in some locales.

Maybe you just need a varmint permit!