Mounting a MG on an airplane

[NoAlibi]

FIVETWOSEVEN: "Where would you exactly mount the gun anyway?"

On the left wing because the actuating cables would have to be fed into the cockpit through the fuselage air vent so that they can be operated by the left hand because the stick is operated by the right hand. On he bottom of the wing because it would cause less disturbance to the airflow going over the top of the wing which is more critical (Bernoulli's Law). Finally, out board enough so as not to shoot the prop off!

 

[Dnaltrop]

I suppose the gearing for an interrupter for the MG to shoot through the prop would be a nightmare with a removable unit you'd have to modify the engine itself if memory serves.

 

[NoAlibi]

You don't have to be J. Paul Getty...

Dnaltrop: "I have absolutely nothing of merit to add to this conversation save for letting you know that my skin has turned a startling shade of emerald green. Always had the daydream of owning a p-38 if ever I came into the financial standing to own a plane. Time to see if Dr. Bronner's and a bristle brush can remove envy."

Let me set the record straight on this. I purchased this airplane in 2006 for $10,200. Most of you probably have cars and/or guns costing twice that much.

The secret is that the Cassutt is an experimental aircraft that, in my case is for aerobatics, is much, much less expensive than a certified aerobatic airplane which can easily cost well over $200,000. I've seen Cassutts costing two to three times more than mine. I know that I got a very good airplane for a very good price - Buyer beware!

There are many airplanes in the experimental category that can fill an incredible number of needs for a very low price. Of course there are some experimentals that cost huge amounts of money if you need to fly very high and very fast.

The caveat is that these aircraft are mostly amateur designed and built and the FAA's only obligation in issuing you the airworthiness certificate is that you use aircraft quality materials and workmanship. The range in craftsmanship is far and wide. If anyone is interested in buying one, it would be best to bring someone along with you that really knows what to look for.

If you're inerested in experimentals check out this link that has pictures of thousands of aircraft and their specs: http://www.pilotfriend.com/experimental/aircraft_list.htm

 

[Dnaltrop]

Oh I know of a few experimentals... I just have a "thing" for aluminum skin and rivets.

It's been a specific urge for THAT plane driving me nuts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-38_Lightning

I can't even imagine how much it would cost to make one air worthy if I even found a heap buried in a barn somewhere.

It's really a kick seeing the recent vectored thrust vehicles as well, Moller skycar being the other big "Never a million years" dream

There's a watercraft Jetpack now using vectored thrust as well, so it's coming along.


Didn't mean to imply you were Scrooge McDuck, Just quantifying my unrealistic dreams

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

On the left wing because the actuating cables would have to be fed into the cockpit through the fuselage air vent so that they can be operated by the left hand because the stick is operated by the right hand. On he bottom of the wing because it would cause less disturbance to the airflow going over the top of the wing which is more critical (Bernoulli's Law). Finally, out board enough so as not to shoot the prop off!

Would it be outside under the wing? If so then I hope you secure it in a way that you don't lose it, that would suck!

 

[NoAlibi]

Mike1234567: "We need more pics!!"

I didn't want to go off topic again, so I tried to PM you with a pic. It failed to go through because you used up your quota for PMs and you need to clear some out to get any more.....Doc

 

[NoAlibi]

Deleted

 

[backbencher]

NoAlibi - How are you intending to remotely charge the rifle, & then clear after firing if you don't use all the ammo? You could operate the charging handle w/ a cable, but how to eject the magazine?

 

[NoAlibi]

Dnaltrop: "Didn't mean to imply you were Scrooge McDuck, Just quantifying my unrealistic dreams"

It’s almost never too late to get into flying. You might not get that P-38, also one of my favorites, but you can get into the mystique of having one with a little imagination. (Walter Mitty syndrome?)

In the late 60s I flew a friend’s P-51 that he converted into a two-place with dual controls. It was an unforgettable thrill. When I get into that small cockpit of my Cassutt and experience the nimbleness of the control response, I’m in that P-51 for nowhere near the cost!

Cassutt cockpit - pretty Spartan, but it's all you need & just a little more (transceiver).

Since you know about experimentals then you probably know that even if you have a disability you don’t need a pilot’s license if you fly ultralights. I flew a Minimax ultralight with an enclosed cockpit that, even though it didn’t have the response of the Cassutt, gave the feel of a fighter plane. Imagination greatly improved the experience.

Minimax Ultralight

Apologies for going way off topic…..Doc

 

[Dnaltrop]

By the time the old man got around to getting me into gliders I was over the height limit

Ultralight could be tempting, I don't see the wife being braver than commercial flight without a sit-down cockpit with room to move, so it would only ever hold my lanky rear solo.

Trainer 2 seat p-38 replica done in carbon fiber? , just cant get off that plane... too many airshows and up close tours of flying fortresses as a kid


Will stop derailing now... pair of linear actuators? one to push the bolt, one to lift the pusher free of the bolt before firing?

 

[NoAlibi]

Backbencher: "How are you intending to remotely charge the rifle, & then clear after firing if you don't use all the ammo? You could operate the charging handle w/ a cable, but how to eject the magazine?"

The gun will be charged prior to takeoff and the safety on safe and I don’t intend to eject the magazine. I have an untested idea on how to contain a malfunction where the gun will be safe flying to the range and back and to contain it if the entire magazine can’t be expended in the strafe. The premise is to keep the muzzle pointed down when the safety is engaged. To be safe it would entail flying over unpopulated areas to and from the airport which can easily be done. BTW, regarding your earlier post, in a constant velocity descent (dive) the G force should be 1 and should not effect the feeding.

 

[Strykervet]

I believe that Mike Dillon of Dillon reloading press fame has some aircraft with mounted machineguns on them.

I don't know the legalities under which those aircraft are allowed to exist, however.


For what it's worth, this is officially the most interesting thing that's been posted on THR.

Dillon has jet trainers with heavy weapons on them. If you could get in touch with him somehow, you might get your answers. I doubt he has a whole lot of folks to talk to about this, so you might make a buddy, you never know...

I agree, state law can and will have some funky stuff that has to do with hunting and poaching but affects non-hunters too.

 

[NoAlibi]

Strykervet: "Dillon has jet trainers with heavy weapons on them. If you could get in touch with him somehow, you might get your answers. I doubt he has a whole lot of folks to talk to about this, so you might make a buddy, you never know..."

Mike Dillon seemed to be a pretty down to earth guy. IIRC I called his office in the late 80s and told them I had an idea about how he could improve his rifle dies. He got on the phone and I told him what I had in mind. Looking back it was pretty naive, but he unhurriedly took the time to explain the error in my idea and he was darned nice about it.

With 20+ more years of reloading experience I'm going to reintroduce the idea with a new twist and maybe that will open the door to his sharing his flying experiences concerning my project. Thanks for the idea.....Doc

 

[GoingQuiet]

I know a warbird collector who wanted his F4F Wildcat to be as authentic as possible so he looked into putting real guns back in the thing.

Several problems cropped up.

1) Crossing state lines is pretty difficult because you have to get approval from ATF every time. A pod would probably be easily removed so that would be easier.

2) How would you secure the gun at the destination? You can't walk away from the airplane really. Pod helps that I guess, if it comes off quick.

3) It may not be legal to actually fire it from the air. Many states regulate than in their hunting laws. Also, depending on where you fired the guns, you might have to catch the brass which might be difficult.

He abandoned the plan but I don't believe he ever found anything in gun laws or FAA regulations that would have actually prevented it. I wouldn't want to be your liability insurance carrier....

That was all pre 9/11 too. I cannot imagine the attention you would get doing it today

Seems like Mike Dillon has something mounted on his UH-1 if I remember.

Just file a 5320.20!

 

[exavid]

There was a guy in Alaska who mounted a rifle on top of the skylight on his Supercub. It had a detachable box magazine that could be changed through a small hatch in the plexiglass. The gun was fired by a solenoid switched from a button on the stick. The gun was aimed with the airplane through ring sights on the cowl in front of the windshield. The gun was fired one time each time the button was pressed on the stick. The purpose of the experiment was to protect cattle on Kodiak Island from Kodiak bears.
It wouldn't be hard to rig up a switching arrangement that would fire several rounds with one pull of the trigger. If the trigger pulsed the solenoid as you pulled it back over several contacts I don't believe the gun would be considered at an automatic weapon. I used to have an "Activator" which was a plastic gizmo with a crank that mounted in a Mini14's trigger guard. Each crank pulled the trigger four times. With an extended magazine it was a lot like firing a full automatic rifle. It wouldn't be hard to adapt a rig like that to an airplane for a bit of ground strafing. Easier with a high wing planform though, you can easily mount a gun in the struts. I used to carry my 30-06 in a scabbard on the left side wing struts and snowshoes on the right side. I was seriously tempted to make a mount on the wing struts of my home built Avid Flyer float plane to mount skyrockets. They could be fired off with a model airplane glowplug and a remote switch. I never quite tried it but I still think it would have worked.

 

[backbencher]

NA, if the G load during the run is 1.0, then you could mount the Ruger upside down, remove the floorplate of a mag, & use a hopper - much cheaper than a fancy drum, as long as gravity feeds fast enough for your cyclic rate. You'd also be able to implement a magazine cut off, which would add to enroute safety. Easy, cheap, & fun to test. A small ceramic bulletproof plate could be used to block the muzzle during flight, w/out having to rotate the weapon back & forth - not that expensive in muzzle size. Also testable @ the range. Does the Ruger have a semi-auto/auto switch?

 

[Dnaltrop]

Exavid...

Pardon the neophyte, but I think any device designed to pulse the trigger several times in succession from a single trigger pull would fall under the same auspices that turn a micro hand-crank Gatling gun into a Machine gun by attaching a cordless drill by a flexi-shaft. if it's not a NFA item already, you may be exposing yourself to some nasty liability.

Any more experienced elders able to confirm my thought here?

 

[NoAlibi]

backbencher: "NA, if the G load during the run is 1.0, then you could mount the Ruger upside down, remove the floorplate of a mag, & use a hopper - much cheaper than a fancy drum, as long as gravity feeds fast enough for your cyclic rate. You'd also be able to implement a magazine cut off, which would add to enroute safety. Easy, cheap, & fun to test. A small ceramic bulletproof plate could be used to block the muzzle during flight, w/out having to rotate the weapon back & forth - not that expensive in muzzle size. Also testable @ the range. Does the Ruger have a semi-auto/auto switch?"

I already decided to rotate the Ruger 90 degrees clockwise (looking from the butt to the muzzle) to keep the fired cases from striking the underside of the wing. My initial plan was similar to yours in that I was going to use armor plate instead of the ceramic. I saw two problems: 1- could the plate withstand a full magazine of strikes; 2- testing could be a problem due to ricochets so close to the ground. I'm looking to do one or maybe two trials of ONLY 30 rounds each; I'm not trying to build a warplane.

The Ruger AC-556 has a 3 position selector: semi, 3 shot burst and full.

 

[CountGlockulla]

Sir I cannot speak to the legality of this or even whether it as a good idea, however, I salute you panache!

 

[Shovelhead]

You could always follow the example of the new "reduced funding" military.

 

[NoAlibi]

GoingQuiet: "Just file a 5320.20!"

I sure would like a solution - what's a 5320.20? Thanks.....Doc

 

[NoAlibi]

Shovelhead - I showed your photo to a skydiving, pilot buddy of mine that said that he would do it if I could find an airplane that could handle his weight and the asymmetric drag at that location on the wing.

Just so you don't think that he was boasting, this guy and two other skydivers cut a small log in half with a chainsaw while they were free falling!

Thanks for the grin.....Doc

PS - The aforementioned friend just read this post and said he could get one of his buddies to be mounted on the other wing to take care of the asymmetric drag problem! Only, he wasn't kidding!!! See what you're getting me into?!?

 

[Dnaltrop]

Actually, makes me think of the converted pods hung to carry casualties in emergencies... give your wing-hanging friends some cover from the wind....

When I was still riding, I have taken small birds in the visor at ... ahem... Freeway speeds

For a little bag of feathers and goo... they hit like a brick... I'd hate to see Helmet Vs Barnswallow at triple digit speed.

 

[jim243]

Would I be violating any BATFE rules? Thanks.....Doc

Nope, only FAA rules on carring Hazmat materials.

 

[sansone]

Sorry but that image looks like a model.

I also need some object for scale, Wouldn't be the first time a member confessed to joking with us. Nobody calling names, we're all buddies here

edit; OK I was mistaken, NICE darn aircraft, very jealous A&P here