Moving up to Blue...worth it?

[uofaengr]

To date I've loaded over 3k rounds of .45 ACP on a Lee Classic Turret Press, and I feel like it's capable of producing pretty decent and fairly consistent loads. My average SD with mixed brass with shot strings of 10 is in the 14-15 range and have done as well as 10. I don't regularly chrono, this was just during load development. These numbers are the same as S&B factory loads which I like, so I feel pretty good about it...I think. I don't shoot competition, at least right now, and my loads have proved accurate and reliable enough for my needs. No issues except a single round (Win brass) that wouldn't fully go into battery in my 1911 but would in my G21. The question at this point is time involved.

If I want, I can do 100 rounds in a little over 25 minutes, but call it 30 due to checking charges randomly and measuring OAL, lubing brass, filling primers, (hunting primers on the floor due to not holding my mouth right when using the Lee Safety Prime), etc. With taking breaks it's probably more a pace of 150/hr than 200+. I also have a love/hate relationship with the Auto Drum Powder Measure and go through periods where I want to check 10 charges in a row and have spent countless hours (days) just dicking with the measure to test charges and try and somehow stop leaking while getting a consistent throw. For OAL, I get variances of .002"-.003" depending on brass.

The most I have loaded in a session was about 650, and it literally took the entire afternoon into the evening with taking a couple breaks, and imagine how many pulls of that lever. All I could think about was if I had a Dillon, I'd been done several hours ago and could have spent the rest of that time doing something else, like shooting. I've already bought dies to load 9mm, but as is, feel like enough of my spare time is dedicated to just .45. I've been trying to get my numbers up so there's not as much pressure to replace what I've shot as quickly as I'll shoot 400 rounds of .45 per trip. With also shooting 400-500 rounds of 9mm per trip, multiple trips per month, I'm having a hard time realizing how I might keep up 2 calibers and still have time to do anything else. First world problems, I know right? Loading is obviously not a chore for me though as I get great satisfaction from it.

So...as tasty as a 650 looks to me despite the cost to get one up and going...in your opinion, does a blue press make any better quality ammo, first of all? If you went from one brand to blue, did you notice better ammo? I don't hate the Lee dies although I've basically mangled my size/decap die getting the collet tight enough not to pop up every other round. I've heard of people using Lee dies in Dillon presses, and I might would too, but Lee is my only experience. I feel like my quality is pretty decent although I'm sure I could do better. At this point, it's a time thing, and I feel like I have to do so much tinkering and Mickey Mouse-ing (Auto Drum) it'd be nice to just load up some components and within a minute or two be cranking out some quality reloads and within an hour already replaced what I shot that day.

I do believe in buy once, cry once, but I knew in the beginning I was not ready for a progressive and wanted to take it slow. I'm trying to not impulse buy and see maybe how much I shoot this year to justify it. Just wanted to get some opinions from folks that have tried Lee or other brands, especially turrets, then went to blue and wished they'd been there all along. How is it worth it to you?

 

[crestoncowboy]

Ive loaded on most any brand press and have 5 set up right now and have dies from most brands. I have actually grown to love lee dies for handgun and plinking calibers. If better ammo is the goal then a press wont help. I dont feel like a dillon makes better ammo than a lee pro 1000 progressive.

That said...it will work much much better with far less tinkering. No strapping a womens toy to the primer tray to make it halfway feed primers. No knocking over every piece of brass on the way to the shellholder. No dropping a bullet. No jarring powder out of the casing as the shellholder snaps into place. Etc. Some say they havent seen all that but a google search will show that none of those are uncommon. Is it so much better that it's worth the price? Up to the end user. Shooting 500 rds of ammo multiple times a month, I'd consider a progressive of some flavor for sure.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

I too have the LCT
Right now it meets my needs but like you, soon it won’t be able to keep up with the amount of ammo I need in the free time that I have.

I’m going to watch this thread as my next press will be a progressive. The question is, is the Dillion worth the money.

I know the Dillion crew believe nothing is as good as a Dillion. I don’t have a loyalty to any brand so I’m looking for the best value. Now that’s different for all of us.

The hard part is that the fans of other brands say their presses work once they get them setup right. What we don’t often hear on brands other than Lee is what tinkering is needed to keep them running. I don’t mind an occasional adjustment, but I am like you that I don’t want to be worrying that things aren’t right as much as you described.

I’m not sure how to figure out which is the best value. I guess if money isn’t a concern, then just get the Dillion. I’m sure you’ll be happy. If you want to save some money, then Dillion may or may not be the best value in the long run and figuring out what’s best for you will be harder.

I guess I’m just frustrated in that the answers aren’t cut and dry.

 

[Blue68f100]

I don't think the press has much to do about making good ammo, it's all on the one doing the loading. As long as you take the time to do it right they all work.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

I don't think the press has much to do about making good ammo, it's all on the one doing the loading. As long as you take the time to do it right they all work.

Yes but some are less finicky than others. The question is which presses, drops, etc stay consistent with the least amount of fiddling.

 

[kmw1954]

So...as tasty as a 650 looks to me despite the cost to get one up and going...in your opinion, does a blue press make any better quality ammo, first of all? If you went from one brand to blue, did you notice better ammo? ?

My opinion to this particular question is NO.
I have 4 different presses and use them all for different things and in all honesty if I took a box of the same load with the same components and loaded them on each press when I was finished I could not discern which press which box came off of.

Now if you are asking if you should replace your press then that is a different question and truly only one you can answer honestly. But again my opinion would be that if you are unhappy with what you are doing now and can afford the investment then make the change. No sense in staying with something when you believe there is a better solution why fight yourself? No matter which press you finally decide to end up with. We all have different needs and expectations for what we need and how we want to get there. Also don't go by what everyone else is saying or telling you what you need. Do your Due Diligence and research them. Form your own opinion on what you really need and want. If that turns out to be a Dillon1050 then so be it. It might also prove out that what you have is really the best fit. I all comes down to what is going to satisfy you and your perceived needs. Heck you may even figure out you really need two different presses!

Like I said I have 4 presses, 1 single stage, 1 turret, 1 Lee Pro1000 and 1 Lee Auto Breech Lock Pro. They all fill a different purpose. Besides I'm a mechanic by nature and just like different tools/machines.

 

[mcb]

I have a Dillon 650XL. I have tool heads setup for a bunch of cartridges, mostly pistol but some rifle. I am likely somewhere north of 60,000 rounds through that press. It works. I can crank 400 rds of pistol ammo in an hour and that includes case gauging and boxing them and not break a sweat. I have not used other progressive presses other than Dillon. I have used SDB, 650XL, 1050 so I cannot comment on the competition but I have enjoyed using my 650XL. Dillon was recommend to me back when I was first getting into USPSA by guys I trusted and they did not lead me wrong.

But be warned any progressive press can make bad ammo as fast as they can crank out good ammo.

 

[Chuck59]

I have recently gone through this same scenario. I've had a Lee Classic since the late 70s. After much reading, watching Youtube videos, etc. I decided to get a progressive press. I decided on a LNL. If I were considering loading as many as you are talking about, a progressive would be a no brainer. For me, it's just another toy.
Will they load "better" ammo than your LC? No, I don't think so, but it is still very early in my learning curve.
Is a progressive all that much faster? You better believe it..

 

[Allen One1]

The question at this point is time involved.

This equals progressive. If you go with the 650XL or the LNL it doesn't matter both will give you additional speed. If you dream of blue get the blue one if money matters get out your pencil and see which one makes more sense. Things change when you look at multiple calibers, bullet feeders, case feeders and multiple powder measures and it can go either way depending on the variables.

 

[Texas10mm]

At one time I had a pair of Hornady LnL AP presses on my bench. I fell into a deal on a NIB Dillon 650. Once I set the Dillon up both the Hornady presses found new homes. I bought my second 650 last year.

With the Hornady I spent more time fiddling with it than loading with it. The Dillon presses just spit out ammo.

I'm lazy, I bought the second so I wouldn't have to switch primer sizes. I've got toolheads for almost all the major pistol cartridges.

I wish I had really listened to the Blue crowd before I bought my first Hornady. A used Hornady LnL AP will sell for maybe 60% of new price if you find the right buyer. A Dillon might go as low as 80% if it's beat to hell and back. I took a bath selling the two Hornady presses.

 

[Bullseye25]

I also started with loading a few thousand of various calibers on a Lee turret. Then got the 650. Worth the upgrade. I also kept my Lee dies and they work fine in the 650. See no difference in accuracy but I can load way more rounds in much less time .

 

[DudeRick]

Yes, it's worth it.

 

[labnoti]

I've had a LCT and use a ABLP now for about a year and loaded close to 5000. The ABLP does what I want and if I were to step up to a Dillon, it would be a fully-loaded 650 at a minimum. I would not expect better quality ammo. There's nothing poor quality about the cartridges I turn out on the ABLP. They're not benchrest precision but a Dillon wouldn't produce that automatically either.

Some problems with the Lee Progressives were mentioned:

knocking over every piece of brass on the way to the shellholder
My case feeder knocks over an average of two or three per 100. It's still far better than feeding cases by hand

dropping a bullet
I have the bullet feeder but only the parts for shorter bullets. It worked well briefly and then proved too troublesome and needed different parts for longer bullets. I don't miss it.

jarring powder out of the casing as the shellholder snaps into place
This happens with full cases of particularly lightweight granules like H110. It is possible to cycle the plate gently enough to avoid it. With most powders it's just not an issue at all.

I will also say, I do not prime on press. I've been disappointed by all Lee's priming tools on press and off. I hand prime with an RCBS tool that isn't perfect, but better. The ABLP does prime well if you hand place the primers in the cup. The case feeder makes it work somewhat efficiently.

Reasons I'd step up to a 650 or 1050:

If I was loading a high volume of longer rifle cartridges. The ABLP will load .223, 7.62x39, 6.5 Grendel and similar, short, AR15 action length cartridges which is what most people are likely to shoot in volume. If I did shoot the bigger cartridges, it probably would be in single-stage volumes.

If I needed more than 4 stations. In fact, I typically use 2 or 3. I've used 4, but have yet to see a need for 5 in my workflow. But I can certainly imagine how it's possible.

If I decided to pay for the convenience and luxury ---- I do believe a XL650 with casefeeder would cost over $750, whereas my ABLP outfit was less than $200 with the casefeeder and auto powder measure. But where the Dillon really makes sense is if I was willing to spend even more. If I had at least a couple thousand dollars, Dillon will sell me all kinds of wonderful gadgets like their primer filler, primer early warning systems, powder checkers, low powder warning, quick-change toolheads, stands and covers and on and on. I would consider doing that someday, but if I were to do that, it would only make sense to have a similar setup for case cleaning, trimming, turning, annealing, and so on and that would involve perhaps as much as another thousand dollars. I do think it's safe to say that if I was going to put all that into a progressive reloading setup, it would be a Dillon.

 

[uofaengr]

So many good points and suggestions I won't quote them all. Really appreciate all the feedback.

Better quality ammo is not really the goal...I think I was seeking confirmation that my SD numbers appeared reasonable and in line with what the Dillon or Hornady guys are getting. I feel like I make good rounds that suit my needs adequately on the LCT.

I'm not loyal to any brand, but in my reading have seen the LNL guys mention various tinkering they've had to do that wasn't present once they switched to Dillon. Again, only what I've read. I'm a tinkerer like most of us, but I ideally want to spend my time loading and not readjusting dies or messing with powder measures for an hour to find the sweet spot of consistent charges and minimal leaking.

I work...sometimes a demanding schedule...so when I head to the club to shoot, I make the most of it because sometimes it's once a month, sometimes 4-5 times a month depending on my schedule. So I don't have to worry about having so many rounds ready for a match that weekend...until I get bit by that bug. I'm a gym rat so most weeknights are devoted to that so unless I have a random off day, I'm limited to the weekend for a full day of shooting and then time for house work and get some loading in. Where the time factor comes in.

I sort of look at the 650 as taking the place of another gun purchase I probably don't need rather than looking at how many rounds does it take to pay it off...which it eventually will pay itself off. At least that's how I'm thinking of it right now.

 

[Tilos]

I've had a LCT and use a ABLP now for about a year and loaded close to 5000. The ABLP does what I want and if I were to step up to a Dillon, it would be a fully-loaded 650 at a minimum. I would not expect better quality ammo. There's nothing poor quality about the cartridges I turn out on the ABLP. They're not benchrest precision but a Dillon wouldn't produce that automatically either.

Some problems with the Lee Progressives were mentioned:

knocking over every piece of brass on the way to the shellholder
My case feeder knocks over an average of two or three per 100. It's still far better than feeding cases by hand

dropping a bullet
I have the bullet feeder but only the parts for shorter bullets. It worked well briefly and then proved too troublesome and needed different parts for longer bullets. I don't miss it.

jarring powder out of the casing as the shellholder snaps into place
This happens with full cases of particularly lightweight granules like H110. It is possible to cycle the plate gently enough to avoid it. With most powders it's just not an issue at all.

I will also say, I do not prime on press. I've been disappointed by all Lee's priming tools on press and off. I hand prime with an RCBS tool that isn't perfect, but better. The ABLP does prime well if you hand place the primers in the cup. The case feeder makes it work somewhat efficiently.

Reasons I'd step up to a 650 or 1050:

If I was loading a high volume of longer rifle cartridges. The ABLP will load .223, 7.62x39, 6.5 Grendel and similar, short, AR15 action length cartridges which is what most people are likely to shoot in volume. If I did shoot the bigger cartridges, it probably would be in single-stage volumes.

If I needed more than 4 stations. In fact, I typically use 2 or 3. I've used 4, but have yet to see a need for 5 in my workflow. But I can certainly imagine how it's possible.

If I decided to pay for the convenience and luxury ---- I do believe a XL650 with casefeeder would cost over $750, whereas my ABLP outfit was less than $200 with the casefeeder and auto powder measure. But where the Dillon really makes sense is if I was willing to spend even more. If I had at least a couple thousand dollars, Dillon will sell me all kinds of wonderful gadgets like their primer filler, primer early warning systems, powder checkers, low powder warning, quick-change toolheads, stands and covers and on and on. I would consider doing that someday, but if I were to do that, it would only make sense to have a similar setup for case cleaning, trimming, turning, annealing, and so on and that would involve perhaps as much as another thousand dollars. I do think it's safe to say that if I was going to put all that into a progressive reloading setup, it would be a Dillon.

This guy had that brass feeding problem on his ABLP too, but fixed it...take a look:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...h-lock-pro-review.849385/page-2#post-11092646

 

[dcloco]

Texas10mm and I share the exact same experience.

At one time I had a pair of Hornady LnL AP presses on my bench. I fell into a deal on a NIB Dillon 650. Once I set the Dillon up both the Hornady presses found new homes. I bought my second 650 last year.

With the Hornady I spent more time fiddling with it than loading with it. The Dillon presses just spit out ammo.

I'm lazy, I bought the second so I wouldn't have to switch primer sizes. I've got toolheads for almost all the major pistol cartridges.

I wish I had really listened to the Blue crowd before I bought my first Hornady. A used Hornady LnL AP will sell for maybe 60% of new price if you find the right buyer. A Dillon might go as low as 80% if it's beat to hell and back. I took a bath selling the two Hornady presses.

 

[nettlle]

It takes a little time to prep my Dillon 550. Fill the powder measure, primer tube(s), check the initial throws of the powder measure, caliper the first few rounds for COAL. Fill up the bullet and case bins. For me 100 rounds every 20 minutes after the prep but I don't hurry when I reload.

Through all of these checks, even after many thousands of rounds and over two years, I have never had my Dillon get out of spec. No adjustment required. This with a both a 9mm and 45acp tool head.

Many fault the priming system on a Dillon 550. I never primed on the press until I got my 550. My 550 is a joy to prime with.

I am not saying a Dillon is any better than any other brand. I will say that a Dillon will do exactly what is supposed to do and do it for a very long time with minimum or no adjustment. And Dillon will back this.

 

[Blue68f100]

I have had my LNL-AP for over 10 yrs now. Like anything mechanical it must be adj correctly. I've had not made any adj on the press in years. Indexing is always dead on, primers feed every time and this is the original one before they went to the breakaway design. I have a brass feeder and it's a different story. There are fixes for it I just have not had the time to make the mods.

Dillon has a better brass feeder. But there are printable ones available now that works just as well.

If your not mechanical incline, AP may not be for you. The LNL-AP is a very simple design with limited adjustments. The 650 on the other hand is quite complicated and you have control of most all settings. Plus the Dillons have a lot of plastic parts that wear causing problems.

 

[kmw1954]

I sort of look at the 650 as taking the place of another gun purchase I probably don't need rather than looking at how many rounds does it take to pay it off...which it eventually will pay itself off. At least that's how I'm thinking of it right now.

It's nice to be in that position which is the impression I got from your posts. Again this is a pass time that you should be enjoying which is better than doing it because you have to, to be able to afford the habit. So if there is a tool that you think will make this more enjoyable or more accessible them by all means do it. Don't torture yourself and kick yourself every time you sit down at the bench.

I have the different presses and honestly I could do w/o 2 of them and not miss them. But I do have them and I do use them. Some not very frequently but they are there when I need them. At the same time I fish and have more rods and reels than I can use at one time even if I took every one of my friends with me. Id didn't need them but I wanted them and I could afford them. Guess some times we just need to reward ourselves.

 

[cfullgraf]

Pick the color loading press whose color best matches the decor in your reloading room. It will serve you well.

I have an Hornady L-N-L, RCBS Pro2000, Dillon SDB (actually 3) and a Dillon BL550. I like all them for specific tasks but they all can load ammunition very well.

I use the Hornady the most as it resizes virtually all my cases besides loading many of them. The other three designs are used for loading of specific cartridges that I find do not work as well as I'd like on the Hornady.

But, the Dillon 650 is a nice loader particularly if you trick it out with all the option goodies.

 

[Havok7416]

I started on a Lee handheld press so i could learn all the basics. Not too long after i stumbled on a Dillon 550 with all kinds of accessories for about half price - a lady was selling off her deceased husband's reloading gear. I have never regretted the purchase.

It won't produce better or worse ammo than any other press - that's a function of materials and QC the user puts in. What it does do is speed up production (even if you aren't in a hurry). For me, this is hugely important. I want to spend as little time at my bench and/or in front of my press as possible. The only practical way to do this and feed the enormous number of rounds my guns consume is to go with a progressive. I might have been able to get by with another brand but I have no inclination to find out at this point. My 550 has needed no tinkering to make it work as i keep hearing about other brands (although I did chop off the primer tube, but that was due to how I load and not a fault of the press itself).

In the end, buy what makes you happy.

 

[lordpaxman]

All I could think about was if I had a Dillon, I'd been done several hours ago and could have spent the rest of that time doing something else, like shooting.

+1
I used to load all pistol calibers on a Rockchucker. Yikes. In full disclosure, I ended up with a LNL, but it's still a progressive. But the main point is to turn out high quality ammunition in less time. If you check any competition survey, Dillon is by far the most used by a huge percentage so if you like blue, go for it.
I would recommend you get a case feeder for the 650, or any progressive, not so much to decrease the load time, but to allow you to focus on the powder charge present in the case and bullet seating. Get carbide dies, so you don't have to lube your brass as you indicated.
You're the one who determines the quality of the ammo.

 

[rbernie]

I moved from Lee Challenger (which I used so much, for so long, that I actually broke it) to a Lee Classic Turret (gifted to a friend) to a Dillon 550. I’m very glad that I made each step along the way, and the 550 does everything that I need. I load at least 10K rounds of rifle and pistol chamberings per year on it.

I specifically chose the 550 over the 650 for the manual indexing - some people don’t like that, but I find that feature very useful when prepping rifle brass or doing load setup.

 

[Hondo 60]

I went from inexpensive red to blue.
I am soooooo glad I did!
I'll be honest, no, I didn't notice better quality ammo.
My SD & ES didn't go down.
At the range I didn't notice a difference (and that's good for me)

What I DID noticed was a LOT less fiddling around with the press so I made consistent ammo a lot faster.
I don't have to stop to adjust this or that.

The change to blue made my reloading experience a lot less frustrating.

 

[uofaengr]

It's nice to be in that position which is the impression I got from your posts. Again this is a pass time that you should be enjoying which is better than doing it because you have to, to be able to afford the habit. So if there is a tool that you think will make this more enjoyable or more accessible them by all means do it. Don't torture yourself and kick yourself every time you sit down at the bench.

I have the different presses and honestly I could do w/o 2 of them and not miss them. But I do have them and I do use them. Some not very frequently but they are there when I need them. At the same time I fish and have more rods and reels than I can use at one time even if I took every one of my friends with me. Id didn't need them but I wanted them and I could afford them. Guess some times we just need to reward ourselves.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for value, and I do think the LCT and other Lee products are great values because they do make good ammo. I'm taking my time on making a change and enjoy the discussion and have never not enjoyed sitting down in front of the LCT. I've been hooked ever since I cranked out that very first round.

Reloading has become another hobby in itself, and sometimes investing in equipment that makes your hobby time more enjoyable is worth it alone. For example, I used to be a big knife guy...then sharpening became a hobby in itself. Started out with lower end stuff to learn that had its frustrations then bit the bullet and invested in nicer stuff that made everything easier and saved time. Fortunately was able to pay it off and then some with a sharpening side business I did for awhile until my time became more valuable than what people would be willing to pay.

If I made the step up, it would be an investment into time efficiency and personal satisfaction, and it's hard to put a price on that.