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MP-5 overrated?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by CornCod, Dec 12, 2009.

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  1. CornCod

    CornCod Member

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    For the past couple of weeks I have been surfing around the web and looking at what the various Third-world armies arm their elite units with. I see an awful lot of H&K MP-5 submachine guns. If I were arming the elite units of a third-world country, I think I would give the MP-5 a pass.

    Don't get me wrong, I think that in many ways the MP-5 is a great subgun. I certainly would not feel completely naked armed with one on a modern battlefield. My problem is with the 9mm round. Fear not, I am not a worshipper of the late Col. Jeff Cooper (may he rest in peace.) However, I remember reading about situations on the Eastern front in World War Two, where carriers of the MP-40 felt themselves outgunned by those who were armed with PPsh's and PPS-43's. It seems to me that 9mm, for a subgun, just doesn't have the range and punch of, say 7.62X25 or of .45acp.

    If I were the head honcho of a Third-world army, I would ask the Red Chinese if they had a bunch of their copy of the PPs-43 in good condition sitting in a warehouse somewhere rather than going on a shopping trip in Germany. Do I have a point here or am I missing something?
     
  2. Eightball

    Eightball Member

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    The MP5 is significantly more accurate than either of the other two SMGs you've mentioned. It has good sights. It is ergonomic (also unlike those other two), and recoils about as much as a 10/22 (IMO). The trigger break is of a clean enough design that on the FA setting, you can easily pop off single rounds, if you know what you're doing. Plus, 9mm is in some serious mass production around the planet right now, while 7.62x25....not so much.

    Plus, it got a good "debut" with the SAS units in that embassy. :rolleyes:

    It's a subgun. If you're wanting range out of a subgun....you're doing something wrong. :scrutiny: Plus, IIRC, there is AP 9mm out there if you need it (countering one of the "draws" of 7.62x25), and to the best of my knowledge there aren't really all too many decent .45ACP subguns in production (the HK offering cracks trunions, the Thompson is old, heavy, and had ridiculous rise, the Grease Gun isn't exactly "elite," and the KRISS is both unusual and hasn't been tested).

    If the primary arm of the rest of your military is an AR type weapon, then I could see a 9mm AR being useful for logistics and ease of training, especially in the third world. But, those are expensive. Money, logistics, and availability all play a factor into that which your friendly neighborhood third-world dictator arms his "elite" forces.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2009
  3. Shadow Man

    Shadow Man Member

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    The Iran Embassy takedown? Beautiful to watch, the SAS boys really out-did themselves there. Plus, it was on live TV, if you look around, you can still find the footage.

    Eightball hit the nail on the head there. And while the 9mm round is not as renowned for its "stopping power" as the 10mm or the .45 is, a controlled pair of 9mm rounds in a targets COM usually does the trick. During OIF1, quite a few of the SOF teams in the citys used the MP5. It provided them an easily concealable weapon, but still put a lot of firepower in their hands, in an easily manageable package. While the MP5 might not be my go-to gun, I certainly wouldn't feel undergunned with one in a close quarters setting.
     
  4. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    the two big pluses for the MP-5 over any other sub gun is it's accuracy and its superior sights.

    highly trained elite units' tactics are based on placing shots accurately. the Mp-5 has outstanding accuracy due to firing from a closed bolt. using it's stack sights, we used to be able to "snap shoot" accurately out to 50 yards.

    H&K had a larger calibre model of the MP-5 available for a while but i don't think anyone adopted it...i think it was .40 or 10mm

    when i was last in HongKong, i was a little surprised to see the security detail at the airport strolling the concourse armed with the MP-5
     
  5. Utah1

    Utah1 Member

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    Don't some of our guys use them in the 10mm model - MP10. FBI & ATF?
     
  6. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    Back between the 1960's and 80's the MP5 was the the coolest thing going.

    Fast Forward to today's modern PDW's and there's no reason for a heavy handgun ammo firing "submachinegun" to exist.
     
  7. Quiet

    Quiet Member

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    Starting in the late-50s, the IMI Uzi became the world standard to which all submachineguns were held to.
    In the 70s, the H&K MP5 took that position and has held it ever since.

    The MP10 was the creation of a fiction writer. No such thing as a H&K MP-10.
    That said...
    The H&K MP-5/10 was devloped for and used by the FBI. The FBI was the only official end user for the MP-5/10.
    The MP-5/40 was created as a result of the MP-5/10. The MP-5/40 was adopted by numerous law enforcement agencies in the USA.
    The BATFE, DEA, US Marshals, US Secret Service & US State Department DPS has always used the MP5 in 9x19mm.

    H&K has discontinued the MP-5/10 & MP-5/40.

    H&K is encouraging end users of the MP5 to switch over to the UMP series and the MP7.
     
  8. Utah1

    Utah1 Member

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    Now that I think about it, it was a Tom Clancy book that refrenced the MP10.
     
  9. Z-Michigan

    Z-Michigan Member

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    The subgun is essentially obsolete for most purposes. Of the subgun bunch, the MP5 is a pretty good one. The former roles of the subgun are almost entirely taken over by short carbines ("entry" carbines, 10-11" barrels are common) firing rifle cartridges, large conventional handguns, and the PDW concept.
     
  10. gb0399

    gb0399 Member

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    H&K also makes the UMP 45, which is a .45 sub gun. Its (IMO) a much better gun. It has a poly reciever and has basicly two parts, a bolt and a bolt carrier/ op rod combo. (yes there are sub parts to those two, but its a very basic gun). Also very reliable

    http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg16-e.htm
     
  11. gb0399

    gb0399 Member

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    one note about the link I posted above,
    The site claims the max effective range is 100 meters, that might be a stretch
     
  12. sarduy

    sarduy Member

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    not really... a head shot at 100m with a 9mm is a kill.
     
  13. BIGRETIC

    BIGRETIC Member

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    How bout this Thompson Vs Mp5?
    Hey...I'm a Saving Private Ryan guy!!!!!:)
     
  14. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    I fired an MP10 years ago. an FBI agent was using on at the range I was running, and let me run two mags through it. Two round burst not full auto, and the best use of 10mm I ever saw. :)
     
  15. C-grunt

    C-grunt Member

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    One time flying home from the middle east we stopped at an airport somewhere in the Netherlands, cant remember where. The airport guards all had MP-5s and us gun guys started talking to them.

    They were loaded with a 9mm bullet I had never seen. It was a lot more rounded in profile, almost like a .45 ACP and had a green tip.

    Anyways he stated they routinely trained at 100 meters and it was easy to make hits at that distance. He said they have shot out to 300 meters and it was accurate enough to give you a really bad day.
     
  16. Kernel

    Kernel Member

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    I'll sometimes put clay pigeons out on the 100 yd berm and break them with a .38 SPL snub nose firing subsonic "cat sneeze" loads. Not every shot, but at least once per cylinder (usually). Not that I’m a great marksman. Anyone can do it with just a little practice.
     
  17. Bovice

    Bovice Member

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    lol, a chinese submachine gun for improved ranged accuracy.

    maybe if i squinted my eyes, the 3 foot group will appear smaller...
     
  18. rfurtkamp

    rfurtkamp Member

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    With a regular fullsize MP5, 100m is a laughingly boring affair to hit.

    With my K-PDW clone, effective caps at about 125, some of it being sights (I prefer the castle vs the peep on that model), some being the shorter 5" barrel.

    It is the only gun I trust for defensive use that has the footprint of a large handgun in a tiny, tiny case or bag or under a coat - the invisible urban defense weapon.

    I wish they were cheaper, but you can't have everything.
     
  19. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    they may not appear smaller, but if you squint when shooting, you might shoot smaller groups...smaller aperture, larger depth of field
     
  20. Gunnerpalace

    Gunnerpalace Member

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    Uhh, I think they were using them due to ammo availability.

    The Mp5 was the standard of high speed low drag guys for a reason, the SEAL's though have stopped using them in favor of the M4 platform
     
  21. Mandolin

    Mandolin Member

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    The MP-10 is from Rainbow Six, by Tom Clancy. My hthory is that to avoid any confusion, he shortened MP5/10 to MP-10. BTW, all the MP10s Rainbow had were suppressed and had three-round burst. They might have been a custom job, possably MP5SD4/5s in 10mm, since they always have suppressors.
     
  22. YaNi

    YaNi Member

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    I admit I'm a big fan of HK rifles (I love the HK slap...), but the MP5 is long past its glory days. The UMP is a BIG upgrade over the MP5/HK94 series, and there are other carbines out there that can offer more. For example the CX4 Storm has a 16" barrel, but the overall size is only an inch or two longer than an mp5 with a fixed stock and a 9" barrel plus it has last round bolt hold open and a "slide lock", so mag changes are much quicker.
     
  23. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    As others have suggested, it's not necessarily the MP-5 that is finished so much as the idea of subs in general. There isn't a job the MP-5 is suited for that I can't do at least as well with my M-4. But my M-4 can do a lot of things the MP-5 can't.

    Having said that, I would take an MP-5 with or over any SMG you can name. While I'm not as much of a fan of 9mm in general, it's a different picture when you can put five of them center mass with no trouble. I am always amazed at how they took the apparent tiny shape and made it man-size with a full grip and controls. It just WORKS. It's so controllable, a few months ago I took a few governmental tourists out with the 19th Group to shoot some weapons, and while they said they just don't use them much anymore, they had these secretaries and accountants zapping out chunks of torso with two magazines, it just seems like it shoots itself. I like Uzis, Mac-10s, etc, but none of them are as easy to shoot. I haven't shot an UMP, and it might well be fantastic, but the MP-5 became so standardized and universal during their run, I can't see a newer design ever having the influence and love of the MP-%. There are pre-86 MP-5s you can buy. They are expensive, but there will never be that many UMPs available.
     
  24. giggitygiggity

    giggitygiggity Member

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    The MP-5 is not overrated. Shoot one and you will see what I mean. I can easily hit silhouette targets at 100 yards. With a sound suppressor, you only hear the faint clicking of parts as the empty casings are extracted. You may also hear the slight puff as the round exits the barrels. the MP-5 is much more compact than a rifle, with the Kruz version beings only slightly larger than a pistol. I am a .45 fan. However, in submachineguns, I think the 9mm is superior for a few reasons. It is more accurate and has greater range. furthermore, the smaller casings allow for easier and quicker extraction. Moreover, you can carry more ammo.

    I definately would not pass on the MP-5. It does what it was designed to do and does it well. It is the king of submachineguns.
     
  25. giggitygiggity

    giggitygiggity Member

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    I would argue that an MP-5 offers more stealth when the suppressed versions of the M-4 and MP-5 are compared. I will say that the 11.5 inch barreled M-4 rifles are basically the same size as the MP-5 only in a rifle caliber, but then again, we go back to comparing a rifle to a SMG.
     
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